Original intentions with C&C Options

[Mr. Pokey]

Bittah's Timeline is correct, IMO.

[gufu]

what if actually Red Alert 3 ended with soviet victory?
And as last of allys soldier escape - they stoped Einstein from killing Hitler(Possibly by erasing Einstein himself) Then most of the world returns back to normal Tiberium Dawn storyline.

[Bittah Commander]

First of all none in the C&C universe knows Einstein removed Hitler from time and by preventing this, you will prevent Red Alert along with everything that came after it; Tiberian Dawn, Tiberian Sun, Tiberian Incursion and whatever was supposed to come after that.

[gufu]

You think Einstein couldn't come back at time?

As soviet forces encircled the Chronosphere(or time machine) and began to pund at it from all possible sides... But as he disapears - we see kane walking away with briefcase... highly possibly blueprints...

Nothing was left of red Alert. Kane came officially began NOD(The military actions that is) Mammoth tanks we're created by GDI. Atom bomb by americans in 1945. All as it was now...

In 1998 Earth came under heavy meteorite bombardment - after that sightings of... Simply put - C&C began...

Possibly Kane waited in past... rebuilded chronosphere - and came back to our time... The time NOD waited for they're self appoionted leader. From then - simply original C&C comes back...

[Bittah Commander]

It's hard to understand what you're trying to say, but no time machine exists in C&C (at least not before Tiberian Incursion).

Here's (parts of) the original factual story (I'm only saying things I know or have heard from Ishmael, which are also facts in the original story; I'm making nothing up)

In the real world Einstein travels back in time to erase Hitler from time, but returns without noticing any change (and for as far as he knows it just didn't work)... Instead of removing Hitler to prevent WWII from happening, Einstein unknowingly created another universe (the C&C universe) in which Hitler just disappeared without a trace shortly after he was released from jail.
In the C&C universe, the Einstein there has no knowledge of ever having created a time machine and probably doesn't even know who Hitler is. In the C&C universe Einstein builds the Chronosphere and Philadelphia experiment (where the Chronosphere is tested) is a success, where in the real world the Philadelphia experiment resulted in a horrible disaster, after which the project was terminated (and Einstein built the time machine using the same technology, without anyone knowing about it). Everyone should already know the story until here; this is how it was written in the Canon of C&C, written by Cypher (which can be viewed at PlanetCNC) and confirmed to be true Westwood (obviously this is no longer the truth in C&C3's story, but C&C3's story is irrelevant to me anyway; the original story is the true story).

Now, in the real world it's said that Tesla contacted aliens through his technology. In the C&C universe Tesla really contacts aliens (maybe it worked better in the C&C universe than in the real world or maybe Einstein's technology improved it), which eventually results in the aliens coming to earth...
...The Great World War II (RA) happens, the allies defeat the soviets...
...A tiberium meteor crashes into earth (most likely sent to earth by the Scrin, who most likely arrived somewhere after RA)...
...The first tiberium war starts (TD)...
...A scrinship crashes somewhere and Kane recovers the Tacitus from it...
...Kane uses the Tacitus to build his own scrinship...
...Nod is defeated and GDI Fires an Ion Cannon on the Temple of Nod, where Kane is present...
...Kane announces to General Solomon he's still alive, the second tiberium war starts (TS)...
...Kane sends Slavik to recover the tacitus from his scrinship, but when Slavik gets to the underground hangar that's supposed to house the scrinship, it appears the scrinship is gone, after which it becomes clear Vega took the ship to attack some GDI forces...
...Vega crashes the scrinship, Nod recovers the tacitus...
...GDI spots the scrinship, sets up a base around it and protect it from Nod who is trying to destroy it to prevent GDI from learning more about it...
...
...
...
A third tiberium war starts (if this war 'd also be called a tiberium war at least); Tiberian Incursion. Someone messes with time again and creates another universe; RA2 takes place in this universe and it's unlikely anyone in the C&C universe has knowledge about the new universe that was created.
And this is all we know for sure.

Again, everything I just wrote is factual.

...I hope Ishmael well give away some more information (I'm mostly hoping for some more information about cabal).

[gufu]

Hm... actualy I make the idea of Einstein going back in time AGAIN and to stop himself from creating soviet attacks(As it seems - soviets are victorios) and erases HIMSELF in time - killing both his oneself and anotherself. That destroys RA universe - and instead things go as they should untill 1998 - tiberium and things begin... and then original C&C story comes...

Got it now?

[Bittah Commander]

The original C&C story starts from Eisntein erasing Hitler, followed by RA, which is then followed by TD, etc...
If RA is prevented, TD is inevitably also prevented. Also, Einstein is long dead even at the beginning of TD, so there's no Einstein that can go back in time to erase himself anyway. If someone would go back in time (which is most likely what was going to happen in Tiberian Incursion), it wouldn't be Einstein...

What I think is that in Tiberian Incursion the Scrin attack and they find out that it was Tesla who contacted them (and thus brought the Scrin to earth) and someone goes back in time to prevent Tesla from contacting the Scrin, creating the RA2 universe. In this universe Kane should also exist (just like he supposingly does in our universe), but he remains passive (just like in our universe). This is because the Tesla never contacted the Scrin in that universe and the Scrin (according to my theory) never got to make any kind of deal with Kane.

What I think is that Kane somehow became aware that aliens were heading towards earth and contacted them somehow... After which he made a deal with them.
Now that I think of it, the Scrin might have actually beamed Kane out when GDI fired the Ion Cannon on the Temple of Nod at the end of TD and you also saw Kane getting beamed out (or up) by the Scrin in the final TS Nod FMV.

[Team Black]

So pretty much any confliction between any C&C game's story timelines can be excusd by a time-travel universe-swap...

Now that I think of it, the Scrin might have actually beamed Kane out when GDI fired the Ion Cannon on the Temple of Nod at the end of TD and you also saw Kane getting beamed out (or up) by the Scrin in the final TS Nod FMV.

that's an interesting idea, I've always been trying to think of an explaination for when Kane dissapears in the last Nod FMV, that's the best one i've heard.

[Bittah Commander]

So pretty much any confliction between any C&C game's story timelines can be excusd by a time-travel universe-swap...

No... Just the creation of the C&C universe and the creation of the RA2 universe are results of messing with time. Maybe (if it really was going to be made) RA3 would also exist in a new universe (which 'd then obviously also be the result of someone messing with time).

Nothing that happens in RA2 (especially in YR) really seems to make sense anyway, so I think it's best to just ignore RA2 (even/especially if/because it's in another universe); ignoring it keeps everything less cheesy. It's hard to connect 2 stories written by 2 different people and keeping the entire story realistic (if something works a certain way in one part of the story, it should work the same in the other part of the story, unless there's a good explanation for it working different) and without plotholes...
Because of this same reason many people that were fans of Terminator 1 and 2 didn't like Terminator 3 for example (the script was written by a different person).

[gufu]

I'm teellling you - REd ALERT IS BEFORE TD!!!
The is no tiberium in RA!(obvious )
What I mean is what Einstein kills hitler - it goes to RA2
Thne Einstein kills himself(erases in time) - destroying Red Alert univers - leaving us wiht pour-tiberium-ddawn universe

[Crash]

EA is ruining command and conquer! I saw a movie with scorpion tanks and crappy selection sounds from cnc 3
EA started ruining command conquer with RED ALERT 2 (still funny, but doesn't have anything of the orginal storyline)

Timeline of Tiberian Universe = RA - TD - TS

Timeline of RedAlert Univers = RA - RA2 - more

EA has made the games not fitting at all!
Red Alert 2 doesn't fit into Red Alert imo
Command Conquer 3 fits a little into Tiberian Sun after what I've seen

And generals shouldn't be command and conquer at all....

you know what ? I hope some command conquer fan takes a job in EA making things positive due to the orgnial story!

I will still buy cnc 3 but......


Maybe there should be realesed a mod for ts or cnc 3 that makes everything like it was ment to be

[Bittah Commander]

Now here's some more interesting stuff Ishmael posted on Petroglyph's forums:

Ah, CABAL... I remember the day we came up with the acronym. I can still see it on the white-board.

Computer Assisted Bio-organic Artificial Life-form

Until now I've always thought CABAL stood for Computer Assisted Biologically Augmented Life-form :blink:
I believe this is also how it was said in Renegade, or was this just made up by EA/Westwood Pacific?

RE: CABAL acronym in Renegade

Yeah, they changed it. I guess they figured it sounded better spoken or something. The name I put out was the one we created when CABAL came into existence in TS. It's not a huge change, but even I went "huh?" when I got to it in Renegade. The intent is still clear though, so it's not a big deal.

RE: CABAL's future

Yep, we had plans for him. Without going into any real detail, eventually, he'd re-emerge with a cyborg / machine faction that had its desires set on conquering not just humanity... but the Scrin as well. The creation of CABAL via the Tacitus information and Kane's mind made for a very power-hungry and ruthless entity that sought control above all else.

[Crimsonum]

@Bittah, Clazzy, and SMIFFGIG: we do not know if the Chronosphere and Iron Curtain technology was ever lost after the Great WW II (Red Alert). You do remember some details fans have been discussing of for ages, like the disappear of Kane after he launches his world-altering missile. What if he used Chronosphere to chronosift himself, maybe back to Red Alert. That would explain the original reason why Kane was in Red Alert.

Yep, we had plans for him. Without going into any real detail, eventually, he'd re-emerge with a cyborg / machine faction that had its desires set on conquering not just humanity... but the Scrin as well. The creation of CABAL via the Tacitus information and Kane's mind made for a very power-hungry and ruthless entity that sought control above all else.

The incarnation of all know evil...Kane....created a monster, more glutton, more devious than anything before it...CABAL...

I'd like to know if Kane, after his another reincarnation, would sought out for the destruction of CABAL? Or, would Kane team up CABAL once more, to destroy Scrin? Would Kane kill Scrin, but spare Tiberium for his "future of manking"?

[Bittah Commander]

Tiberian Sun follows the Allied RA ending (don't argue, this is a fact). Ishmael (@ Petrogrlyph's forums) already gave an explanation for Kane's presence in Red Alert; Kane really is Cäin, Adam's son (and when you finish Tiberian Dawn you get to see an artifact with an illustration of Caïn {Kane} killing his brother Abel.

The Chronosphere was never in the possession of the soviets, so Kane could have never gotten his hands on it without the allies or GDI knowing about it. It only makes sence (no matter what happened) for the allies/GDI to destroy the Chronosphere after the Great World War II (Red Alert), because the side-effects (mainly the Vortex that wipes out everything in it's path, which appears in Red Alert when you've used the Chronosphere a couple times) were too great a risk and it's quite possible the worst possible side-effect the Chronosphere hasn't been witnessed yet.

[Crimsonum]

Tiberian Sun follows the Allied RA ending (don't argue, this is a fact).

I assume you mean Tiberian Dawn, along Tiberian Sun, follows the Allied RA ending, right?

Ishmael (@ Petrogrlyph's forums) already gave an explanation for Kane's presence in Red Alert; Kane really is Cäin, Adam's son (and when you finish Tiberian Dawn you get to see an artifact with an illustration of Caïn {Kane} killing his brother Abel.

I know, I have seen the artifact. But that does not explain why he is like, thousands of years old...or more...

The rest I agree, but what happened to Iron Curtain? Did Kane get that device on his possession? if so, he could have used it, along with the technology of Tacitus, to create that "Scrin ship" we see in TS. According to the FMV, a GDI soldier says that the C4 charges they placed to blow the thing up didn't even scratch it (invulnerability), but stupidly in the next mission, the craft could be destroyed almost instantly by some Nod troops...

[Bittah Commander]

Yeah, I obviously meant TS along with TD follow the Allied RA ending.

The allies defeated the soviets, meaning it's possible for them to have taken it from the soviets, along with all the blue prints and everything, making it impossible for the soviets to re-construct. Aside from that someone might have invented something that when applied to weapons, would make the Iron Curtain useless or even more likely, a weapon that when fired on a unit the Iron Curtain has been applied on, would instantly destroy the the unit.

The Scrinship is obviously not invulnerable, but the ship might just be built from a material (or the hull might be constructed in a certain way) it can easily resist an explosion, but is as vulnerable to armor piercings (or a collision with an object) as any other unit.

[Clazzy]

What if he used Chronosphere to chronosift himself, maybe back to Red Alert.

No, you don't quite get the Red Alert storyline/temporal mechanics. First of all, the time machine at the Red Alert intro allowed Einstein to travel back in time. However, the Chronosphere was merely a device to teleport a unit in space and not time. Time travel isn't as simple as changing something in the past to affect your own present. It would create a parallel universe so Kane travelling back in time wouldn't help at all. Besides, once Einstein shook Hitler's hand he reverted back to his original timeline, suggesting that (despite the obvious flaws) you can't stay in the past.

[Team Black]

Wouldn't it just be easier to stop trying to connect all the storylines, and just accept that they're different universes entirely?
Unless someone can go back in time and erase EA, we'll just have to accept that EA's CNC game's storylines aren't compatable with westwood's.
Westwood obviously meant RA1>TD>TS>TT/TI, but EA went in and dropped a a wrecking ball on it with RA2.

[Crimsonum]

No, you don't quite get the Red Alert storyline/temporal mechanics. First of all, the time machine at the Red Alert intro allowed Einstein to travel back in time. However, the Chronosphere was merely a device to teleport a unit in space and not time. Time travel isn't as simple as changing something in the past to affect your own present. It would create a parallel universe so Kane travelling back in time wouldn't help at all. Besides, once Einstein shook Hitler's hand he reverted back to his original timeline, suggesting that (despite the obvious flaws) you can't stay in the past.

I see...well, I think I rushed with my post...

Wouldn't it just be easier to stop trying to connect all the storylines, and just accept that they're different universes entirely?
Unless someone can go back in time and erase EA, we'll just have to accept that EA's CNC game's storylines aren't compatable with westwood's.
Westwood obviously meant RA1>TD>TS>TT/TI, but EA went in and dropped a a wrecking ball on it with RA2.

And it would be easier to me if you had read the upper posts carefully. Ishmael from Petroglyph already stated that RA2 is it's own universe, that was born by unknown factor, in Tiberian Incursion (after TS).

[ShDwBoRn]

ugg...EA screwed this up BAD, i wonder if anyone at EA actually knows the correct timeline themsleves

[Bittah Commander]

Ishmael revealed some more on some of Westwood's original intentions

Kane built CABAL and incorporated pieces of his psyche into the machine while constructing its personality. Ever see the film "Saturn 5"? The robot learned its obsessions and murderous tendencies from the "teacher" it was connected to -- a similar thing happened here. CABAL is an extension of Kane's mind so that Kane would have a completely obedient and cunning ally. Unfortunately, the data from the Tacitus gave CABAL some other desires that allowed him to bend Kane's will and desires....

FWIW, there were 5 eventual factions planned when we were talking about C&C3 it back at WW: GDI, Nod, Scrin (first release), Forgotten (expansion 1), CABAL (expansion 2).

[SMIFFGIG]

Im actually in PARTIAL agreeance with Team Black

We have to remember here, although since 1998 onwards (which is a long time) WW have created and sorta maintained a link between the RA and Tiberian Universe, we also have to remember something very important

The original story (which had apparently already been written by founding members of WW... of which names i cannot remember now but it did know in the past) was the Tiberian Story which was a trilogy

Tiberian Dawn - Tiberian Sun - Tiberian Twilight (but in the original story this was actually 'Tiberian Midnight')

Now this was the original story and idea, the very original

Now looking at it from a game perspective

RA was (although i love this game and its one of my fav games of all time) was almost originally a cash on the success of Tiberian Dawn

C&C WW2 as it was originally known, was a C&C game but its ties with TD and the tiberian storyline where certainly an after thought (even if we are talking 10 years ago here)

However the link WAS made but I certainly like the proper very original idea of the Trilogy.. it makes much more sense

I mean the appearance of Joe Kucan in RA as Kane... in FMV was almost on par with the giant ants ingame.... it could (if nothing more was said after the game) be considered an easter egg.... obviously official word now undermines this but at the time his appearance had little or no other effect on story or gameplay on the whole scale of things and his appearance was minimal.


So at the end of the day I think its personal preference wether or not you want to link the storylines or not

-Go really! far back and there is NO WAY they are linked
-Go a little less far back and they are sorta linked in an eastery egg sorta way
-Go not that far back and they are linked as word from ex-WW employees (if i remember correctly it was a women who helped write the story and who has not been a member of WW for quite some time at this point)
-Look at today and you could even be crazy enough to link CnC3 haha!

I prefer to go to the original concepts and view the Tiberian Storyline as the originally intended Tiberian Trilogy


Edit: I do wish I could post sources to what I have posted, but trust me. Ask me this 4/5 years ago and I could give you some sources, I even spoke in email a long time ago to Joe Bostic who had some interesting information

[Bittah Commander]

I see where you're coming from, I agree C&C might indeed be interesting as a trilogy too and C&C doesn't really need Red Alert...
However, by the time Westwood started working on Tiberian Sun, they already dropped the idea of a trilogy, so we might not know anything about the original story, aside from what we've seen in Tiberian Dawn. We don't even know whether CABAL was supposed to be part of this trilogy. We're only sure about the Scrin, seeming they already made a (very) small appearance in Tiberian Dawn and CABAL was probably supposed just to extend C&C by another sequel or two.

I think that if the entire original and "extended" original C&C stories would be released, the very original one would actually just feel like a summarization of the "extended" one.

So in the end I don't think the very original C&C storyline (TD, TS, TT) would be better than the extended one (RA, TD, TS, TI, ...?, TT?).

[Crimsonum]

I somehow agree with Smiff's opinion about RA. Notice why it was originally planned to be just an expansion pack for C&C TD. Afterwards, they decided to make it a more deeper story, than just adding new missions for C&C TD.

[Nighthawk]

I can't remember where, but one of the proposed progressions of the Tiberian storyline (I'm guessing before they came up with Tiberian Incursion) was:
Tiberian Dawn > Tiberian Sun > Tiberian Twilight > Tiberian Moon > Tiberian Eclipse.

If I knew the source of that I would post it, but I've lost it .

[Bittah Commander]

Well, that's a bad guess. It was the fans over at EA's forums who came up with Tiberian Eclipse as a better name for C&C3 (so instead of Tiberium Wars).

[SMIFFGIG]

I can't remember where, but one of the proposed progressions of the Tiberian storyline (I'm guessing before they came up with Tiberian Incursion) was:
Tiberian Dawn > Tiberian Sun > Tiberian Twilight > Tiberian Moon > Tiberian Eclipse.

I can almost guarentee this is not and never was the official plan, Tiberian Moon and Tiberian Eclipse are almost certainly nothing to do with WW or C&C and if you havent made them up then some other fan(s) probably have

Here is a couple of interesting quotes from Brett Sperry said during the early development stages of TS

For Tiberian Sun, players re-visit the story of the first game, as Red Alert was a prequel of sorts set in the mid 1900s.

Seems to me that at this point there is no certainty about where RA1 fits in and it sounds like it was not in the original plan book

"For the follow-up to Tiberian Sun, which we are calling Tiberium Twilight right now, we might wrap up the Nod and GDI epic -- Or maybe not. It's hard to tell since C&C universe is so rich and the back-story so deep. We will just have to wait and see.

Hence the original trilogy idea (it was originally Tiberian Midnight btw but this was a very long time ago)

[Crimsonum]

Tiberian Moon is a name of a mission in the popular campaign map pack (can't remember who made it, but it was downloadable in almost any C&C site few years ago). I don't know about Tiberian Eclipse, though...

Hence the original trilogy idea (it was originally Tiberian Midnight btw but this was a very long time ago)

Well, I always thought that there were two trilogies, (Red Alert I,II, and III, and Tiberian Dawn, Sun, Twilight/Incursion) although Red Alert 3 didn't get further than a single false declaration (was it by Brett Sperry?)...

[SMIFFGIG]

Tiberian Moon is a name of a mission in the popular campaign map pack (can't remember who made it, but it was downloadable in almost any C&C site few years ago). I don't know about Tiberian Eclipse, though...
Well, I always thought that there were two trilogies, (Red Alert I,II, and III, and Tiberian Dawn, Sun, Twilight/Incursion) although Red Alert 3 didn't get further than a single false declaration (was it by Brett Sperry?)...

No it was Mike Verdu
and RA2 and the RA3 announcement are late EA era and are of no real significance to this discussion

[Tore]

Red Alert was never meant to be a game but expansion pack for Tiberian Dawn

Bad picture of original cover (I could not find a better picture)


I think that ion cannon explains it

This post has been edited by Tore: Mar 11 2007, 08:30 PM