Original intentions with C&C Options

[Bittah Commander]

This topic was posted on the Petroglyph forums and has some very interesting replies by Ishmael -a Petroglyph (and former Westwood) staff member- about what Westwood probably would have done with the story if they still owned the C&C rights and things that used to be facts when they still owned those rights (but in my opinion they still are facts, because EA isn't making a real C&C anyway).

For those who don't have an account at Petroglyph's forum and are just too lazy to register, I'll quote the posts of Petroglyph staff in that topic.

Hi,

i'm new here and a BIG fan of C&C by Westwood. Too bad, EA is butchering now the brand... :glare:
Well, i have some questions regarding the timeline of the C&C universe. I've worked out this one:

Red Alert 1: 1946-1952
Red Alert 2: ca. 1966-7/31/1972
Yuris Revenge: April 1972
Red Alert 3: between 1980 and 1995
Tiberian Dawn: 1995-1998 or 1999-2002
Renegade: 1998 or 2002
Tiberian Sun: 9/2/2030-Dec 2030
Firestorm: Dec 2030-2031
Tiberian Twilight: starts March 2047

-Is it correct?
-Can you fix it?
-The manual of Renegade says 2020, but it makes no sense?

So long
Chrissyx :petroicon:

Are you trying to nail down specific dates? I'm unsure exactly what you're after from us.

Keep in mind that anything that we (former WW employees that created those games) say about the C&C time-line is now completely speculative. We don't own C&C, so even if we were to tell you some dates, EA could easily override that for their purposes with that franchise.

Your best bet would be to ask someone that now controls the C&C lore from EA as to what dates they feel are appropriate. :(

Incursion was our working name for C&C3, but that wasn't converted into Generals by WWP. Incursion was being worked on after Generals was already being developed -- we were using SAGE to dev it, actually. Generals was always its own game. It was more an updating of C&C1 than anything akin to what C&C3 was going to be. A few of the unit concepts for early C&C3 ended up in RA2 / Yuri's... as yes, we were working on C&C3 stuff that long ago, right after TS/FS, but before we stopped work on C&C3 to work on Continuum.

C&C3 went through several incarnations at WWS and at EALA over the years after that. The current game (C&C3) doesn't look to have any of the new/unique elements we were playing around with back then (which I can't discuss), but feels like TS 2.5 in terms of story / fiction, a re-imagining of parts of TS in some ways I guess. If Generals was C&C TD 1.5, then C&C3 being C&C TS 2.5 makes sense.

I can't say for sure if that's their intent, since I don't keep up with C&C more than watching the videos that you've all seen as well. P-02 keeps us plenty busy!

Since EA owns and has all the docs we used to keep on C&C lore / history, they actually have all those intended dates and such for the time-line themselves. We don't have any of that any longer, since that's all EA property.

DISCLAIMER: This is ALL SPECULATIVE. Don't go asking EA about this, as it was never written down and they wouldn't know about it. This was a plan that some of us that influenced the fiction had discussed.

In dealing with C&C timeline, you have one problem -- the timeline split...

It was:

Red Alert
C&C TD
Renegade
C&C TS / FS
C&C 3
|---> Red Alert 2 / Yuri's --> ???
\---> C&C (4) --> ???

Now as to just WHAT was going to happen in C&C3 to split the timeline... well that's all just fantasy speculation now. The RA2 disconnect was completely explained by the event as well, and it all ties back into the origin of the entire C&C universe and RA's inciting incident.

So that's the timeline. RA2 didn't happen initially, so the dates would be off. Just like Einstein removed Hitler, someone changed the past yet again, resulting in the RA2 universe / split before TS could happen in the first place.

So there you go.

Nah, it's just that what we say isn't the "truth" any longer, and since EA owns the rights to C&C and the franchise, we can't say anything about C&C with any authority any longer. I'm just trying to manage people's expectations on how much value they should put on anything we say regarding the C&C franchise or past Westwood games.

Believe me, we certainly loved making all those games.

WWS developed Renegade.

If you'll remember in Renegade, Mobius comments on the new strain of "blue" tiberium that he's studying...

Also, the Nod computer in the end that's malfunctioning in the temple has a very interesting acronym... hmm...

Renegade was set between C&C TD and C&C TS.

DISCLAIMER: Again, this stuff is all based on things that were never written down or were edited out of drafts, so don't go asking EA about them, they won't know about it.

RA was the start of the universe. Einstein removing Hitler is what shifted the "real" universe to the C&C one. In the original, original drafts of the RA story, Tesla and Einstein were the dueling scientists behind each side's new tech. Although the tesla tech stayed for the Soviets, Tesla didn't.

However, if you read about Tesla (the real tesla), you'll find that he claimed to have contacted aliens through his tech... hmm... now what if he really DID contact aliens... what aliens did he contact? What did the aliens do in response?

...are you starting to see where this is leading?

I'm the Creative Director actually. I don't have to manage schedules.

But we're certainly putting as much thought and planning into our new P-02 universe as we did with C&C, and all the designers really seem to be digging it. The missions are looking pretty cool and very varied.

I think it'll be an interesting ride for a lot of people through the campaign. We're doing some things differently than most RTS...

This post has been edited by Bittah Commander: May 25 2007, 03:06 AM

[Crash]

Cool!

[ChielScape]

this should be show to EA, at the very least.

[Ixith]

i always kinda had an idea that the storyline was suppose to go something somewhat like that.
hell i wish EA wouldav never f*cked things up.

anyways this was some pretty interesting information.

[Blacksilence]

I rader don't say this becaus i like generals and zero hour.
But now i read this f*ck EA. Ea sucks to the ground Burn those ***********,( Not the games), The Bought up Westwood to clim higher up in the gaming world.(sorry For my Language)
If you look good in Ts, Westwood left certain things out of the game, reason Not in of money
Then Ea comes in, to help( They have more money )The Released Tiberian Sun Unfinsched.
And Ea goes on.

This post has been edited by Black hawk: Jan 5 2007, 09:57 PM

[Crash]

Yeah... I think they have ruined a little and they didn't say anything about cnc after realesing generals, (I think it doesn't belong to the cnc universe really, Tiberium and Red alert is the real thing and feels like it should!. Generals is...... cool but it's not cnc alike. I think Red Alert 2 didn't kinda follow the story either. I like red alert orginal more. It gives me the CNC feeling, I get it in ra 2 but not like in the other ones.
What did it do to the storyline ? It just throwed in alot of wierd stuff. NOTHING about Einstein's time travel or Kane. And it felt like a stand alone product if you know what I mean. I think EA might give the fans what they like now. I just hope that they'll wait another 5 years with a new game. It hasn't been a real cnc game since tib sun

[Bittah Commander]

The upcoming C&C really won't be what the fans want; it just lacks too much continuity (only the "fans" that don't care about continuity might get what they want).
I've also always said RA2 didn't fit in the canon of C&C, but I'm alright with it after hearing Ishmael's explanation; that RA2 actually also is in another universe. So we've got our universe, the C&C universe (RA, TD, TS, TI?, TT?) and another universe in which RA2 happens.

[Robo fish]

well here is my opinion :

Westwood C&C : Red Alert, Command and Conquer, Tiberian Sun/Firestorm, Sole Survivor <--- the serie we all love

EALA/EA with Westwood : RA2/Yuri, Renegade <--- Were EA start f*cking things up

EA : Tiberian Wars <--- Were EA Broke the serie we all love

[wondle_donkey]

So Nikola contacted the scrin, giving them the location of earth, which they then infest with tiberium to terraform it to they're liking.

Damn i wish i thought of that.

[Bittah Commander]

This was just posted at Petro's forums

Remember that tablet that Kane had in his palace in Renegade? In a vid at the end of C&C TD during the credits?

It depicts something important, and gives you a clue as to his origins.

What I understand from this (even though I'd always rather think that Kane just wanted people to think this to give him more power) is that Kane actually really is Caïn, son of Adam, who killed his brother, Abel.

This does seem a little odd though, because if he really is Caïn (who also very coincidentally was banned to the land of Nod), then why does he only exist in one dimension (the C&C one) and not in any others (like our universe and the RA2 universe), just like Einstein, Tesla, Stalin and Hitler do?
The fact thát he is Caïn (a religious person) could have to do with this, but then again Adam also exists in all dimensions...

The way I see it all existing dimensions (the ones that exist according to C&C) are the only the ones created by messing with time and thus there'd only exist 3 dimensions now (though the RA2 dimension possibly has yet to be created in Tiberian Incursion and thus wouldn't exist yet), the RA2 one actually being irrelevant in the canon of C&C (because whatever happens in it, doesn't have any effect on the C&C universe). So all dimensions have a common history (seeming the dimensions where all one at a certain time, but got separated at a certain point).

Still, if this is the case, Kane would have been in our time line as well (possibly taking control of Hitler's forces... Or maybe he is in our timeline and he's Bin Laden's or even Bush's Right hand ), but he isn't. Kane only appeared after Einstein created the C&C universe by traveling back in time and removing Hitler, so somehow that should be the cause of Kane's escape from the land of Nod.
Maybe when the C&C dimension got created it got a little messed up and something was missing or different which allowed Kane to escape. There might be a better explanation though...

Anyway, it can be explained why Kane wouldn't be in the RA2 universe. During Tiberian Incursion the time machine is either found, constructed or reconstructed (possibly Kane did have blue prints for the time machine -which the chronosphere is also based on- but he just never build it) and someone traveled back in time to prevent Kane from escaping the land of Nod; which also created RA2 (a time line in which Kane doesn't exist, but in which another madman takes his place). The appearance of Yuri also has to be explained somehow though...

[Team Black]

Heyy, this reminds me of another topic, from tumsun...

This one to be exact.

The conversation about EA though also reminds me of a catchy saying I heard once,
"the golden rule is that the one with the gold makes the rules"

Westwood had the creativity, but EA had the $$

[Bittah Commander]

I just thought of this:
Maybe the reason why someone messed with time again in Tiberian Incursion was to prevent Tesla from ever contacting the aliens. So someone travels back in time, prevents Tesla from contacting the aliens and creates a new dimension (the one RA2 happens in), just like happened when Einstein traveled back in time to remove Hitler. Now the name "Red Alert 2" would make a bit of sense actually, because the first time someone messed with time a new dimension was created starting with RA1, then someone messes with time again and creates another dimension, starting with RA2.
But anyway, by preventing Tesla from contacting the aliens, the aliens would also be prevented from sending tiberium to earth, like you can see in RA2, but Kane is also missing there... So maybe it was actually the Scrin who allowed Kane to escape the land of Nod and Kane made a deal with them for that. This would explain why Kane wouldn't be in RA2 (no tesla contacting aliens==no tiberium on earth+no Kane escaping land of Nod) and why Kane was trying to spread tiberium around the earth so bad; it was just part of his deal with the Scrin.

[SMIFFGIG]

If the timelines are all intermingled like this, then what happened to the Chronosphere and Chronosphere technology in TD and Tiberian Sun (RA2 is just ridiculous, and even has a seperate "Time Machine" building which makes no sense)

TD I can understand (because originally there was to be 3 C&C's only TD, TS and TT) but by the time of "C&C WW2" (which we all know as C&C Red Alert) they had made references to Kane (with his appearance in an FMV if i remember correctly)

But then all these links are ignored in TS

I still personally like the idea of there being 2 seperate universes, all these other confusions only came into it when WW decided to make RA1 after the initial planning and storyline of the Tiberium Universe and tried to link them together

Anyway anything they could do to make this link plausable went out the window with the RA2 game onwards

As much as I loved RA1 and its addons as a game, the C&C Tiberium Universe is still the best in my opinion and there is no need to try and tie all the C&C games into one single universe..... as this was definitly not the very original intention.
However the Tiberium Universe does seem to have ended (with TS/FS) as did the Red Alert universe with RA2 killing it :(

[Bittah Commander]

Were the links between RA and TD really ignored in TS? I'd say the links just weren't mentioned...
Also, I think it would be fair to assume the chronosphere was destroyed after RA; we all know the dangerous side effects it had (if you used the chronosphere a couple times in RA, a lightning shooting whirlwind would appear, destroying everything in it's path).

[Tyler Adams]

Were the links between RA and TD really ignored in TS? I'd say the links just weren't mentioned...
Also, I think it would be fair to assume the chronosphere was destroyed after RA; we all know the dangerous side effects it had (if you used the chronosphere a couple times in RA, a lightning shooting whirlwind would appear, destroying everything in it's path).

Yep.

Chrono Vortex.

Makes perfect sense, actually.

[Mr. Pokey]

The RA->TD->TS time-line makes perfect sense, the technology that has apparently disappeared would have been destroyed, it being dangerous, or the plans being destroyed so the allies couldn't get their hands on it.

[Clazzy]

Were the links between RA and TD really ignored in TS? I'd say the links just weren't mentioned...
Also, I think it would be fair to assume the chronosphere was destroyed after RA; we all know the dangerous side effects it had (if you used the chronosphere a couple times in RA, a lightning shooting whirlwind would appear, destroying everything in it's path).

The Iron Curtain had no bad side-effects. People aren't dumb enough to lose blueprints and designs to a structure. Since people tend to assume that the Soviets won in RA then TD happened, this is a big flaw. Technology that advanced just doesn't go walkies over thirty years.

[Bittah Commander]

It's the allies who won RA though, this has been confirmed by former Westwood staff and it's also the usual path of the story in C&C (the good guys winning).
About the Iron Curtain, it might've also became obsolete because the allies found something to damage units the Iron Curtain was used on or even instantly destroy it...
Seeming that Einstein was also still with the allies after RA, it isn't that unlikely he created something that would render the Iron Curtain useless.

[vOi!king ship]

And why would he disable such a powerful weapon, eddectivelly rendering it useless, a weapon, which could be further developed and used by the Allied forces? Not very plausible. More plausible version - the Soviet Engineers destroyed all remaining Iron Curtains and commited suicide/were killed by Stalin's order, so that this technology doesn't fall into the wrong hands.

Yuri, being Stalin's advisor, could have a back-up somewhere, which he gave to Romanov after he returned from his secret mission.

[Bittah Commander]

I actually meant Einstein would've created some kind of weapon that when fired on a 'Iron-Curtained-unit', would possibly instantly destroy it or Einstein would've just adjusted the weapons of all units somehow, so that their weapons would damage 'Iron-Curtained-units' anyway and thus making the Iron Curtain useless.
If this would be the case, It actually would be believable for the soviets to destroy all their Iron Curtain technology and blue prints of it because it'd be useless to them anyway, but if it'd fall into the hands of the allies it would be very dangerous to them.

[Clazzy]

I might be wrong but the Allies captured the Iron Curtain in one of the missions.

[Mr. Pokey]

The allies destroy the Iron Curtain prototype, they do not capture it.

[Crash]

I said they MIGHT be able to make atleast a game with a little storyline and give us SOME of the old cnc feeling. I think it would be way better if old westwood made it. Atleast things are different. Cause it's mike verdu not Mark skaggs...
I am not sure. But is yuri stallins advisor ? Isn't Kane that or are both advisiors ?
You can't trust EA 100% like westwood. EA doesn't focus on what CNC needs. They focus on graphic :(
It's a really interesting thread up there bittah. I hope that one day, former WestWood staff might say everything that's supposed to happen... And compare it to EA's things. That would be good cause fans like us would see what EA has done good\bad

I like the Idea of Timeline. As Ra2 didn't happen really. It would make 2 much sense to the future. If they later on make ra 3 they can say it didn't happen. So in ra kane did blabla and someone removed timeline of RA2 and then RA3 starts(something not happening) And then peace. I think it's perfect if they do so. Then it's a small connection Since ra2 and ra3 doesn't happpen this is kind of the way I think of it or if soviets won and it results in the tiberium univers. And if the allied won and that result in More RA games

Something like this Red alert1 -- Allied Win- Red alert 2- Red alert 3-more things (not tiberium universe)
|

soviet win

Peace
1995
tiberian dawn - tiberian sun - tiberium wars ( I prefer Tiberian Twilght :( )

This post has been edited by CrashKing: Jan 9 2007, 01:59 PM

[Bittah Commander]

No, Tiberian Dawn follows the the allied RA ending, no discussion about that.
Also, If Westwood still owned C&C, they wouldn't have made Tiberian Twilight either (since they were no longer intending to make C&C a trilogy), but instead Tiberian Incursion and maybe finally (possibly after another couple C&C's after TI) Tiberian Twilight.

This is what the timeline looks like according to Westwood's original idea:
Real World¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨
¨¨¨\/¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨
Red Alert -> Tiberian Dawn -> Tiberian Sun -> Tiberian Incursion -> ???... -> Tiberian Twilight?
¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨\/¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨
¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨Red Alert 2¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨

I have no idea whatever they intended to do in RA3 (or weather they really intended to make it)... If they would make an RA3, it'd obviously be a sequel to RA2, or it'd be another universe, created when someone messed with time again in either RA2, TI or any C&C after TI (in the C&C universe that is; RA2 isn't in the C&C universe, but in a separate universe).

[Crash]

But atleast red alert one has some kind a connection....
Anyway. I can look as it like theese universes then.

Red alert - tiberian dawn - tibarian sun - further on

Red alert - Red alert 2 - Red alert 3 (maybe) -end of red alert

So they are split okay. We need to look on things from red alert.

if we say that red alert is in both universes it might get easier. As Red alert 2 and 3 doesn't happen really. I see the point.

I think it gets right as kane says in red alert... that we need to keep peace till 1990's

so IT IS in the same world but you're the commander in the red alert 2 and 3. That is a isolated time

or i can think of it like this.


Red alert-Red alert2-Red alert3- Maybe kane goes back in time ? making ra2 not happen so he can start the tiberium age.
Tiberian dawn----------Tiberian sun-------tiberium wars

blabla I just get confused. let's say that the time between ra2 and tib dawn is not sighted by the tiberium universe. Or saying it's 2 possibilities of one universe



If I could, I would buy back command conquer and get alot of the old WW's emplooyes to work on it

This post has been edited by CrashKing: Jan 10 2007, 08:21 PM

[Ixith]

This is what the timeline looks like according to Westwood's original idea:
Real World¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨
¨¨¨\/¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨
Red Alert -> Tiberian Dawn -> Tiberian Sun -> Tiberian Incursion -> ???... -> Tiberian Twilight?
¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨\/¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨
¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨Red Alert 2¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨

that looks likely and better shows what you were trying to say earlier.
but in the Red alert 2 universe Red Alert 1 has still happened hasn't it? the only difference is that Kane just wasn't one of Stalin's advisers in the RA2 universe.

Red alert-Red alert2-Red alert3- Maybe kane goes back in time ? making ra2 not happen so he can start the tiberium age.

well the only illogical thing about that is that Kane isnt in RA2 so he wouldnt be able to go back in time to start the tiberium universe. its much more likely someone else went back in time during the tiberian universe.

something like a GDI scientist or officer or general, gets the chrono tech stuff somehow and uses it to go back in time after RA1 but before tiberium is introduced and before the Scrin is contacted and removes Kane just like Einstein did with Hitler. or that person goes back and removes Tesla who contacted the scrin. probably the second of the two or both possibly.

i like this type of discussion it makes you think. lol

[Bittah Commander]

I think it'd actually make most sense if someone traveled back in time to prevent Einstein from removing Hitler (maybe they found out Einstein did this somehow) and thus preventing Red Alert (which is most likely where Kane got his power).
This makes sense because there are some things in Red Alert 2 that indicate World War 2 actually did happen... And if RA is prevented, WW2 does happen (unless RA is prevented by removing Stallin ).

[Crash]

Maybe... I like the ideas. 2 universes ?
Red Alert - Tiberian dawn - Tiberian Sun Tiberian Incursion - ???... -Tiberian Twilight

Red Alert - Red Alert 2 - Red Alert 3
Or maybe the red alert games are cronosphere time lines ?

[vOi!king ship]

RA - RA2 - RA3
...........|........................................
..........\/........................................
..........YR events happening - TD - TS - FS - Tberian Something...

My guess is that in RA2 timeline, when Yuri went bacl to the past disrupted the time-space ballance, creating a new future, and Tiberium in it. We still don't know if in RA3 the meteorite won't fall again, but this time the Soviet and Allied forces fight over it.

[Crash]

Man this confuses you