How do you think the red alert and TS universes are connected? Options

[CrimsonFlash]

Everyone post your theories here,even if its completely wacky, just dont be stupid <_<

This post has been edited by CrimsonFlash: Oct 28 2006, 02:44 PM

[Slender Mang]

kane comes on at the end of ra1 on the soviets so thats 1 thing

[Bittah Commander]

Einstein travels back in time, shakes hitlers hand and causes a temporal paradox by doing this. His intention was to remove hitler from time, but when he returns to his own time, nothing has (and will) change (this is still our universe).
By doing this however, he created another universe (the C&C universe) in which hitler suddenly disappeared the day he got out of prison. Because of this, Hitler never spread his word and never started World War II.
In this universe the developement of technology was alot more successful; experiments that failed in our universe were successful (the Philidelphia experiment for example), because of which the technology advanced alot quicker.
This gave Stallin the means to start his own World War II; Red Alert, meaning that another World War II took the place of the one that was prevented. Kane, who was Stallin's right hand during Red Alert, disappeared when the soviets were defeated, but used the chaos as the time for the Brotherhood of Nod to make their appearance about 35 years later and make its army to be wat it is in Tiberian Dawn.
Stallin's right hand, Kane, also makes his appearence again in Tiberian Dawn, without having aged.

So what's up with Kane is still a mystery; maybe he's immortal, maybe he has clones, maybe he can time-travel, just like Einstein.
Red Alert does connect to Tiberian Dawn the way I just described; it isn't a theory, but a fact. Red Alert 2 should've never existed. It was Westwood Pacific's first C&C and when they made RA2, they claimed the RA and Tiberium universes weren't connected (though, who are they to say that, seeming they aren't even the founders of C&C or RA alone).
Now Westwood Pacific (now EA Pacific, working on C&C3 right now, together with EALA) is trying to fix this mistake and intends to change the storyline from
RA->TD->TS->TI... (C&C was supposed to be a trilogy, but this idea was actually scrapped when RA was made and seeming the C&C after TS wouldn't be the last C&C, it'd be named Tiberian Incursion instead of Tiberian Twilight)
to
RA->RA2->RA3->TD/Renegade->TS->TW...
The Canon of C&C, written, compiled and edited by Mark "Cypher" Kotliar, describes the storyline of all C&C's made by Westwood Vegas (not intentionally, but this just happens to be the case).

Ever since Westwood Pacific took over (right after TS Firstorm was released that is), they started to change the storyline to their likings, turning it into a whole different (IMO very cheasy and even childish) story.

So there are actually 2 versions of the story; C&C Vegas and C&C Pacific.
C&C Vegas is the original (though unfinished) C&C Story (RA->TD->TS->TI) and ends with Tiberian Sun (firestorm) and C&C Pacific is based on this story, only it changed alot of events from the original story and continiues after Tiberian Sun. C&C Pacific also appears to be aimed at a much younger audience.

[Gothic Gregg]

I think Kane has an even eviler brother. There solved! Just my opinion.

[Slender Mang]

lol darth malak is his evil brother!!!

Attached image(s)

 

[Tyler Adams]

Bittah.. you thought that out WAY too much.

It's just a game, it always has been, and always will be.



Anyways..

So..

RA1*/CS -> AM -> RA2 -> YR -> Gen/ZH** -> TD/CO -> Ren -> TS -> FS -> TW

That's going by how the games have been, if you want to say every game with C&C on it = part of the story.

Of course, Generals and RA2 are a bit.. well.. out there, so.. Imo, it's

RA1/CS -> AM -> TD/CO -> Ren -> TS -> FS

(*RA's internal folder name was C&C0 **Gen HAS to go here, there isn't any tiberium and it's been around for a while in TD)

Also, about WWII/RA1; the Pacific War, America Vs Japan in the '40s, did happen, hence the Iwo Jima/ USS Arizona Memorials in RA2. That, and Japan would have attacked America, even without Germany keeping Europe occupied. A decade or so later, the USSR attacked Europe, starting TGWWII, as it was known in RA2.

[Bittah Commander]

It's just a game, it always has been, and always will be.

It's a game with a good story. For me C&C is my favorite non-existand good book (seeming I don't read books anyway)

Actually, all C&C's were part of the C&C story (TD, RA and TS; including all expansions except for the covert operations), until Westwood Pacific took over. Like I said they first tried to seperate RA from TD, but now they want to connect them again (probably because the connections between RA1 and TD are undenyable).
Because of Westwood Pacific's ignorance (sorry I call it that, but that's really what it is), they also made a C&C which didn't even fit or could be fit in the in the C&C story; Generals. There's no way you can connect C&C Generals and EA Pacific (who used to be Westwood Pacific) doesn't even claim it's connected and I highly doubt they'll try to do so (because they wouldn't even be able to if they wanted to). Looking at what happened to the C&C story after Westwood Pacific took over, I think they should've never touched the story in the first place. They just don't appear to care about what has already been established; this became obvious when they made RA2 and tried to seperate the RA universe from the C&C (tiberium) universe and this is becomming even more obvious now they're working on C&C3.

Anyway, there was no Japan in RA and there was no Japan in RA2.
Remember the developement of technology was more successful and for all you know America's technology became so advanced Japan didn't even dare to attack America... Or Japan was so happy about their advanced technology, their emperor was in such a good mood he decided not to attack America
Aside from that, we were judging a war between the soviet union and the allies in Europe. There always could've been a war going on in America/Japan(/in between) simuntaniously.

[Vertigo]

There is no connection, they are all separate universes. An RA Universe, a Tiberian Universe, and a Generals Universe. Each one of them offering something different, to make sure that all CnC's are not just clones of each other. They may have little similarity's here and there, but they can never connect no matter how hard we try...

Seeing as you are trying to use Joe Kucan as the great link, why not use Athena Massey (LT. Eva Lee in RA2, Unknown pilot in TS), or Nicholas Worth (General Marzaq in FS, Romanov in RA2). Hell, lets go deeper, lets use Billy Dee Williams to connect CnC to Star Wars, or perhaps Francesco Quinn to connect CnC with 24. The point is that the way you are attempting to connect the two universes is just as pathetic as trying to connect Marathon and Halo. They may have been made by the same people, but they aren't the same game...

[Bittah Commander]

What's the point in denying a fact, Vertigo. For you information by the way, RA, TD and TS (and their expansions) were made by the same people; Westwood Vegas. Thease are the people who founded C&C and they connected RA to TD right when they made it.
Westwood Pacific made RA2, Generals and is now working on Tiberian Wars (under EA), they are the ones who tried to seperate RA from C&C, but even they are made up their mind about that and intended to connect them again with RA3.

All C&C's made by Westwood Vegas were intended to be part of the same storyline when they were made; Westwood Pacific started changing the story and ripping it into pieces and now wants to glue them back together again. Generals is not even a C&C (the C&C logo was only slapped on it so it'd attrackt more fans and thus make more money), so don't even mention Generals when we're talking about the C&C story.

Like I mentioned before; there are 2 "universes"; C&C Vegas and C&C Pacific.

Their timelines look like this (not mentioning the expansion packs, as it's obvious where they belong):
C&C Vegas: RA->TD->TS->TI->??....->TT (TI=Tiberium Incursion, TT=Tiberian Twilight; obviously).

C&C Pacific: RA1->RA2->RA3->TD->TS->C&C3->C&C4->C&C5->C&C6->C&C7->C&C8 ...
(their just trying to get as much money out of C&C as possible neglecting whatever has been previously established, which is what created the C&C Pacific "universe" in the first place. After a couple sequals to C&C, you won't even recognize it's a C&C at all anymore.

[Vertigo]

Westwood might have intended the RA storyline and the Tiberian Storyline to be connected, but the fact that they sold the license before they could really shows their devotion...

And Generals isn't part of the CnC storyline, because there is no storyline. It's an RA storyline, a Tiberian Storyline, and a Generals storyline. All taking place in entirely different universes, and shouldn't be connected in anyway. I'd sooner hate EA for connecting the storylines than for ****ng up the storylines...

[Tyler Adams]

Anyway, there was no Japan in RA and there was no Japan in RA2.

...

Japan was never mentioned, no, but that's only because they never entered TGWWII.

If they'd entered the war, attacked Russia, something, they would have been mentioned. But they didn't.

But, there was nothing to prevent Pearl Harbor, Japan needed natural resources and wanted America to back off.

So, it's safe to assume something happened between America & Japan in the '40s.

Plus, it explains why America wasn't part of RA1. Yeah, the Allies' vehicles are American-designed (M1 Abrams Medium Tank, M2 Bradley Light Tank, GP light vehicle, AH64 Longbow), but America isn't a playable army, nor is it ever mentioned in RA, they must have exausted forces in the war against Japan. (Iwo Jima was one of the bloodiest battles America has fought in, comparable to, I believe, Gettysburg in the Civil War.)

[Bittah Commander]

Westwood might have intended the RA storyline and the Tiberian Storyline to be connected, but the fact that they sold the license before they could really shows their devotion...

And Generals isn't part of the CnC storyline, because there is no storyline. It's an RA storyline, a Tiberian Storyline, and a Generals storyline. All taking place in entirely different universes, and shouldn't be connected in anyway. I'd sooner hate EA for connecting the storylines than for ****ng up the storylines...

EA already ****ed up the storylines by making RA2 (and Generals which isn't even a C&C). First they tried to seperate the C&C storyline when they made RA2 and now try want to connect them again, making the C&C story as a whole as childish and cheesy as RA2/YR is (though they're already doing that with C&C3 anyway).

Anyhow, the the founders of C&C made C&C as one universe, then some other folks take over and split the universe up into multiple universes to be able tho squeeze more money out of it and even make another completely unrelated universe, but slap the C&C logo on it so they can get that extra bit of C&C fans that 'll also fill their pockets.

Even the fact that the founders made C&C as one universe is reason enough to take C&C as one universe. No matter how much EA paid when they took over, they have to respect what has already been founded and not change it to their (and against already existing and knowing fans) likings.

[Kurorahk]

Okay here I go this is how I see how the whole C&C universe is set up.

Red Aleart-Soviets win-TD-GDI Win-TS-GDI win-FS-Nod or GDI win (don't know which yet)- C&C 3 TW
---------------------------\Allies win-RA2-Allies win-YR-Allies win-???
----------------------------\--------------------------------\-Yuri win-All your bases are belonging to us
-----------------------------\Soviets win- all hail the new permire (you) |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------\Soviets win-No more Capitalism we all are dead (Here come the KGB now)



Big Bang-Civilzaton-Westwood-EA Eats Westwood-Generals-Zero Hour...
Poor lonly C&C Generals...

This post has been edited by di schmitt tank: Oct 29 2006, 07:00 AM

[Vertigo]

Westwood's CnC's were all about the story, they seriously would have made better movies than games. A book is a better investment than those hunks of crap, all story no boring. Don't get me wrong, I love a game with a good story, but not at the expense of fun...

EA's CnC's are all about the gameplay, which is in my opinion the most important thing to have in a game. Sure their storylines don't have much to 'em, but they have enough. You know who you're fighting, you know why you're fighting, just enough to get you by...

Though that was somewhat off topic, it had to be stated. My argument was based on the fact that the CnC franchise has changed owners over the years, who do things very differently. No matter how much we would like to see the RA storyline connect to the Tiberian storyline, they just can't.

Westwood is just as responsible for the turbulence that the CnC franchise has faced as EA is. Things have happened that can't be undone, things that will forever keep the RA Storyline and the Tiberian storyline in separate universes. No matter how much Westwood, EA, and even the CnC community try this can't be fixed. You're all gonna just have to face facts sooner or later, just like I have...

[Nintyuk]

the original west wood made RA a prequal toTD my thery is :that when enstine created the parrelel univrse it made afar off planet blow up and the scrin who lived on the planet whent serching for a new one and there sensors picked up earth but it would take them a long time for them to get there so they sent a high speed misstle containing part of there planet and this was the tiberium meateor that hit earth mean while they con tacted the agent they had placed on the planet centureys ago by implanting him in to awoman called mary his first name he used was jebus but after the romans incatasipated his discise he left his body causeing quite a rucus so he hid for a few decades in thas time growing a new form after he emerged he looked in the histoy books and seeing the mess his first approach made he chose a new name from this book (the bibel) he cose the name caine whithch eventually changed to kane he whent and led several lives trying not to get into the eye of the pubilc that was untill the time enestine created the ulternait universe because of the nature of his race he culd not be sent int o 2 universes so like his planet he whent in to the new uinverse
and was erased from ours arund this time he was a high ranking offical in stallins army and aftere there defeat he once again whent in to hide ing during this time he was contacted by the scrin telling him what to do and how to pre pare forthere comng and so he stared to gain support eventually creating NOD and after the the meateor im pacted hebrougt nod into light and after the first tiberium war he had to re grow his body but he made a mastake and the face was disfigured so during the second tiberium war he created several shells of his peffered form so when he was killed by macane he just need ed to get to his shells and implant his conius in to the shell, this ex plaines y he dosent age because heas a alien in a shell witch he updates when neccesery.

[Bittah Commander]

I agree, the C&C storyline got messed up ever since Westwood Pacific took over and it'll only get messed up even more.

I really disagree the story in Westwood Vegas's C&C's went at the expense ov fun. It's a a personal taste really, but in my opinion TS has the best gameplay of all C&C's and RA2 has the worse.
Judging Gameplaywise (leaving out renegade because it's an FPS):
1. TS
2. TD
3. RA
4. Generals
5. RA2
TS is all about strategy and less about just blindly spamming units, same for TD, only it's less veriated. RA is a rank below TD because I don't it's propperly ballanced; there's absolutely no reason why anyone 'd wanna pick the allies in multiplayer; their army is underpowered in prettymuch anything compaired to the soviets. The gameplay of Generals isn't that bad, but it doesn't really fit my taste... I dislike the dozer build style spamming units and early rushing is much to populair when you play online (which is inevitable, seeming multiple units can be build at the same time, which promotes spamming).
RA2 basicly has horrible gameplay IMO. There's hardly any strategy, but it's spamming or be spammed.

Westwood Pacific/EA Pacific's C&C's aren't the original C&C's anyway; they follow their own twisted storyline, in which Red Alert was sperated from TD and 'll be reatached again (on which I agree, it won't do any good).

In the original C&C storyline (made by the original developers; Westwood Vegas) Red Alert has always been part of the same storyline, a storyline of an alot more serious game-serie, wich appears to be aimed at a whole difference audience than Westwood Pacfic's C&C's are aimed at.
Westwood Pacfic's C&C's don't have any blood in 'em (none of 'em do, not even renegade), the storyline is rather cheesy and childish and the gameplay is strategywise very different from TD, RA and TS. Westwood Pacfic' C&C's appear to be aimed at a much younger audience who aren't that interested in the story in the first place, where Westwood Vegas' C&C's have alot more depth (storywise), are alot more serious and have a different type of gameplay, which requieres alot more thinking (something younger players might have a problem with).

Back on the RA to TD connection subject however; in the original storyline RA is connected to TD (which is reason enough already actually) and even the people who seperated RA from TD want to attach it again, so therefore the RA storyline really is connected to the rest of the C&C storyline.

[Vertigo]

You guys act like Westwood is totally innocent in this ordeal, like EA stole the license from them. Whatever, IMO CnC didn't get good until EA took over but that's just IMO. Never the less I concede, this argument has been going on for years all over the net and we will get no further than anyone before us...

[Tobiasboon46]

Hmm...Very interesting,but:
Ra1:1945----->Kane makes a phrase in ra1 installation end.
Ra2:1960
YR:1970
TD:1994--------->(There's a Sarajevo TD NOD base in TS and in the real world U.S.A fought Serbia and Boznia in 1995 (see movie Behind enemy lines)
TS:2020----->correct me!
FS:2025/30---->correct me again!
TW:2060------>may be I'm right!

This post has been edited by tobiasboon46: Oct 29 2006, 02:45 PM

[Bittah Commander]

TW happens in 2047 and I believe EA is changing the date at which TD happened.

[Tobiasboon46]

Zone troopers in TD?
And tiberium in TW is not plant based,in TD is plant based there's no connection!

[CrimsonFlash]

On the 15th red alert 1 mission you capture the real chronosphere, and it never got destroyed along the lines, which means after the soviet's fall, Kane uses the chronosphere to make a Time Tunnel, and he travels into the future, really, red alert happens first, the tiberium age was just bound to happen somewhere.

[ShDwBoRn]

Since in RA1 you see Kane several times and at the end he takes over the soviet union i am guessing that Yuri is a clone of kane. Kane is taking over the world in one axis of reality and Yuri in the other.And since timeline has NOTHING to do with the relation between the games since they are in different dimensions and time is relative anyways. In one dimension RA1 happened and they had such great tech because WW2 never happened. In the Tib universe WW2 did happen and Russia remained "good guys" (Except for during cold war) so the newly formed GDI which is mentioned in RA1 as well (except when they mention it they say it's a global militay UN taskforce) has the russian mammoth tank and all the other russian stuff. plus kane is a transdimensional being that happens to have a army of clones, so he either uses chronosphere to warp dimensions or he does it on his own with his transdimensional powers

This post has been edited by ShDwBoRn: Oct 29 2006, 05:02 PM

[Tobiasboon46]

Nevermind EA are gonna reveal the full history some day,isn't it?

[Warlord]

there in 2 diffrent dimensions so they cant be connected in any way whatsoever

[Bittah Commander]

The full completely twisted and altered (by them) history that is.

Zone troopers in TD?
And tiberium in TW is not plant based,in TD is plant based there's no connection!

That's my point exactly. Westwood Pacific/EA Pacific is messing up the entire storyline.

If you just follow the original storyline, Red Alert and Tiberian Dawn happen in the same universe; in the same dimension.

Just read Mark "Cypher" Kotliar's Canon of C&C if you want to know the smallest details of how RA and TD are connected (and more ofcourse).
Cypher has (and had when he wrote the Canon) contact with the former Westwood staff and they themselves found the canon acceptable (and even used some parts of it according to Cypher).

On a sidenote; the original developers of C&C (Westwood Vegas) officially stated that Red Alert is connected to TD; it's even stated in the manual that it's the prequal to TD. The fact that Westwood Pacfic/EA Pacific tried to seperate C&C as a Red Alert and Tiberium universe to squeeze more money out of C&C only shows how selfish they are; they don't care about any of the C&C fans they took over from Westwood Vegas.

[Tyler Adams]

Hmm...Very interesting,but:
Ra1:1945----->Kane makes a phrase in ra1 installation end.
Ra2:1960
YR:1970
TD:1994--------->(There's a Sarajevo TD NOD base in TS and in the real world U.S.A fought Serbia and Boznia in 1995 (see movie Behind enemy lines)
TS:2020----->correct me!
FS:2025/30---->correct me again!
TW:2060------>may be I'm right!

Afaik, it was
RA1 - 50's
RA2 - 70's
YR - 70s, maybe a month later, IF that
TD - mid 90's (1995)
TS - 2030's (2035)
FS - 2030's (right after TS)
TW - 2040's (2047, it says somewhere)

Hmm.. about EA & dates.. imo, 1984 much?

[Tobiasboon46]

And the Sarajevo old base?
Serbia is near Stavros' Greece.
Allies Revenge,however wierd,make a link beetween the two universes pretty interesting!
New stuff!!(You Tube)
Isn't that Joe KuKane!!

This post has been edited by tobiasboon46: Nov 6 2006, 06:28 PM