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> More flying building expiramentation
Ditch the flying buildings?
read the first post bfore voting ;)
Yeah, ditch em [ 4 ] ** [30.77%]
Don't ditch, we need flying buildings! [ 9 ] ** [69.23%]
Spinach, or green beans?
Spinach [ 9 ] ** [69.23%]
Green Beans [ 4 ] ** [30.77%]
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Team Black
post Jun 28 2007, 12:29 AM
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We know that we can't use actual aircraft, since they don't follow deploy logic- but there are a few ways to make aircraft out of vehicles:

1st idea: adjust the hover locomotor. Reading through Jah's heli research, I thought I'd give my own shot at it (I wasn't expecting to succeed where he had failed - rather, just to know for myself what does and doesn't work)

By adjusting the HoverHeight for the hover loco, you can make a convincing looking aircraft, with the ability to deploy. There are many minuses (which are described in Jah's thread), but they can all be overcome with some tweaking. However, there is a key issue that remains: cliff passability.
By making the terrain
CODE
; cliffs
[Rock]
Foot=0%
Track=0%
Wheel=0%
Float=0%
Hover=100%
Amphibious=0%
Buildable=no

it does not enable the unit to descend or ascend cliffs, only to move on them in the same level.
Attached File  livin_on_the_edge.PNG ( 96.67K ) Number of downloads: 4

This also causes some compliance issues with hover units- it's difficult to get them to go places, especially if a cliff is involved in the process.

VERDICT: using the hover logic is phayl.

2nd idea: make the vehicle fly. this is done by giving it an aircraft's locomotor, SpeedType=winged, and MovementZone=fly.
This method allows for aircraft to support every logic that vehicles support: deploying, passengers, hva animation, shp, turrets, etc.
The cons:
It is invincible during flight - unless it runs into a firestorm wall (not even hunter-seekers can get em)
It can't reveal shroud while in flight - but this might not be a big problem, if we make them MoveToShroud=no.
it can be picked up by carryalls - but I wouldn't really see that as a gameplay-threatening issue
Attached File  invincible_balloon.PNG ( 40.93K ) Number of downloads: 3

The invincibility thing might be balanced if we make em go really really slow, but even then, ehhhhhhh roll.gif
If we were to make mobile buildings though, this would be the best way to do it (unless the exe hackers feel like getting planes able to deploy/undeploy. . .)

MY VERDICT: flying buildings in TS would be great, but it isn't going to happen. Even if it did work, it would already throw the game's balance to heck.

So what now? I'd hate to say it, but I'm leaning towards ditching the mobile buildings altogether, but I'm going to need some feedback before I decide anything...


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jadems
post Jun 28 2007, 12:50 AM
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LOL, I wouldn't cross them out entirely, how about just givng them the normal logic, it'd work. or a subteranean vehicle?


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Lightstorm
post Jun 28 2007, 01:43 AM
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idea 1: when a mobile building is in flight is rises off the map and deploys a small "Guidance aircraft" that would use ordinary flight logic to transit. then when it reaches its destination it does (something) and the base returns, that way its vunerable and can transit normally. problem is idk what you would do to "summon" the building back. lots of porblems to overcome so for now this is phayl

idea 2: invisible carryalls. simple: since the base must deploy/undeploy to function when its undeployed we have a vehicle that looks flight-ready, then we take a carryall and swap the current vxl for a small cool looking gadget that attaches to the top of the ship (explained away as a guidance system) and that would somehow have the same health as the unit its carrying, it then takes the unit to its location. you player could get say 3 of them at start or use the logic that makes a tib miner with the refinery so that you get one when you build a building. WIN!


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Lin Kuei Ominae
post Jun 28 2007, 10:19 AM
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idea 1. i don't see a way how this should work.
idea 2. this would be only possible with map triggers. If you want the human player to control the Scrin, he/she can't use this feature, or only with some annoying complications.

imo we should use the flying vehicles, even if they are invincible. The explanation could be that Scrin ships have strong shields while they fly, and are only vulnerable while deployed or on ground. And due to the fact, that all flying vehicles (Buildings) are unarmed, it's not that much imbalanced.
This way they are quite the same as subterranean units. They can't be stopped too, without emp.

And the armed Scrin ships can then use the (high flying) Hover logic. The flying height should be low enough to explain why they can't cross cliffs.

list of Flying vehicles:
4-5 Scrin Base Buildings/Ships
1-2 deploy-to-fire Attack ships
1 Scrin troop transport (couterpart to the sub-apc)

list of hover units:
-scrin heavy cruiser
-scrin harvester? (with a cool energy-stream animation that beams tiberium up into the harvester; refinery designed so it looks like the harvester would let the tiberium fall into the refinery while flying over it)

list of normal aircrafts
-scrin fighter
-scrin bomber

This post has been edited by Lin Kuei Ominae: Jun 28 2007, 10:37 AM


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Lightstorm
post Jun 28 2007, 01:03 PM
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i still think carryalls are our best bet, we don't have to make them small, mabye make some kinda of ribbed thing that grabs it, you code it so when you construct a building you get a free carryall MK2 (building mover) with it, then (wait can you undeploy a building first built in the construction yard? we need to check that) when you want to move you simply undeploy the building, pick it up with the carryall mk2 and fly it to the new base site. I'm not really for using hoverlogic unless we can figure out how to make it ignore cliffs (is it possible to just copy over strings of coding from RA2 into TS? we don't need to change the coding itself but if we could some how identify the logic behind that YR deployable aircraft could we just port it over?


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Lin Kuei Ominae
post Jun 28 2007, 01:20 PM
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would you then give the undeployed building speed=0 so the player is forced to use the carryall?
can the player build additional carryalls from the warfactory?
if you want for each building a different carryall, do all these are available in the warfactory too? (seems a bit redundant if there appear 4 or 5 different carryalls)
how do you want to avoid a small carryall from a small building to carry away the biggest building.

The main reason why i don't like this, is because this doesn't supports the idea of the scrin having spaceships.

The only way i would accept your idea is, if the carryall looks like an spaceship enginesection, that picks up/docks with the spaceship. But for that, each Spaceship should have the same size or is designed in a way, so that on all ships the uienginesection layout is the same. Because i really don't want 4 or 5 different carryalls, while you can not avoid the smallest one carrying the biggest ship having some very ugly graphical errors (engines in the middle of a ship etc).

QUOTE (Lightstorm @ Jun 28 2007, 01:03 PM) *
wait can you undeploy a building first built in the construction yard? we need to check that
afaik this works. the conyard can be build as a building and then undeployed into the unit.
If not we can overcome this using Freeunit tags on invisible dummy buildings. This way the construction buildup anim can be even different from the deploy buildup anim.

copying code from RA2 to TS is very hard. i don't think we find someone who can do this. So we have to work with the things, the TS engine supports.

This post has been edited by Lin Kuei Ominae: Jun 28 2007, 01:25 PM


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post Jun 28 2007, 01:35 PM
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i would use the same carryall for everything, it would be a longish unit that has things on the bottom that lock into "Slots" on the ships, it was just be attached to the top and it would look like spaceship engines or a spaceship itself, and yeah I'd force carryalls to be used, maybe the deployable weapons could move on their own (slowly) but i'd say the structures require carryalls. yeah you can build more carryalls too. mabye if we really need to we can use 2 carryalls but more then that becomes stupid and we'd have to code it so only certain buildings can be moved by certain carryalls, nah I'd just use one and figure out how to make it look good on everything.

one way i was thinking to do that is making the carryall the size of a limpet mine that just attaches to the top of the building. call it the "flight module"


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Lin Kuei Ominae
post Jun 28 2007, 02:37 PM
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The Scrin use normal tanks too. How do you want to avoid them beeing carryalled?
Tanks with flight nodes?
Tanks with spaceship engines?
Both weird and not good.


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Lightstorm
post Jun 28 2007, 03:32 PM
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can't you set it so certain units can't be carryalled? I'm pretty sure there are a few units that can't


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Team Black
post Jun 28 2007, 03:47 PM
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Yeah, there's no way to limit what a carryall can pick up - it's all or nothing. Carryall=yes or Carryall=no

Also, when you make something a FreeUnit (like a harv comes wtih a refinnery) it makes that unit into a VEHICLE, regardless if it's coded as an infantry or aircraft (it's kind of funny to see infantry acting like vehicles, too lol.gif ). We already know that vehicle-aircraft are invincible during flight, and can't reveal shroud - they also can't act like a carryall (yup, I tested it)

In RA2, they got rid of traditional aircraft logic, save for Harriers and Boris's MIG's.
Their aircraft were actually vehicles, which is why they came out of the war factory - that's what made them able to deploy, carry passengers, animate their rotors, etc. Also known as, idea #2 from the first post.
The only thing is, they were able to make them reveal shroud, and not be invincible to weapons, whereas in TS, there's no good way to get around that issue, unless we have some good exe hacking ability, and lots of time.

I'm thinking that idea #2 might not be that bad after all, if we make the buildings slow enough, invincibility might not be as much of an issue - and, we can give em a roxorz hva animation XD


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post Jun 28 2007, 03:57 PM
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ooh then you skip a carryall for the scrin side


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Lin Kuei Ominae
post Jun 28 2007, 05:23 PM
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i would say yes, no carryall for buildings. (But we can still have one for normal carryall duties)
i also don't really see the problem with invincible scrin ships. Come on, that's their feature.
If we raise the BuildupTime= tag so you can't place or sell a building that fast, it also isn't possible anymore for the scrin to fly into an enemy base and pump out units there.
So all is fine and balanced. And we can have all the cool moving buildings features.

This post has been edited by Lin Kuei Ominae: Jun 28 2007, 05:24 PM


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jadems
post Jul 12 2007, 12:51 AM
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So do we have flying buildings or not?

And LKO the problem with invincible Scrin ships, i would think, is that online or something there would be people that have their buildings undeplyed so that they can't lose..


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Lightstorm
post Jul 12 2007, 02:00 AM
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we could just scratch them altogether. that might be best, or see if anyone can hax the exe and port over deployable buildings from RA2


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Team Black
post Jul 12 2007, 03:04 AM
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No need for EXE hacks, Miss Lights cool.gif

in my "Aircraft Breakthrough" thread, it describes a way of making RA2-style deploying, animated, infantry-carrying, turtet-wielding aircraft, and though they are invulnurable to normal weapons, they can still be shot down by railgun-type weapons, so these are totally practical! dance.gif

Yea, mobile buildings are a %100 possibility now - deployable as ever! Looks like we can keep em after all smile.gif


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Lightstorm
post Jul 12 2007, 01:40 PM
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cool.
note: all AA defenses are now weaker railguns


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post Jul 12 2007, 04:11 PM
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but, the scrin should have one building on the ground that acts like the mcv.Its like a beacon and the other buildings cant go more than say 50 spaces away but their will be range towers that amplify the range of it to increase distance. and i could throw together an AArail gun

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post Jul 12 2007, 04:18 PM
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I'd say the scrin wouldn't have that limitation. and any chance we could get a better looking railgun animation?


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post Jul 12 2007, 04:20 PM
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it would balance it i think


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post Jul 12 2007, 08:37 PM
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Well we can make the railgun part invisible, taking away the particles & laser, and give it any other weapon.. although the railgun'e AmbientDamage= is the only thing that'll hurt the flying vehicle. Damage= does nothing.

Another thing I was thinking is that the Scrin MCV could try and make the Scrin MCV into a war factory - all the main buildings like barracks, radar, tech center, upgrades and stuff will be built from the war factory, and base defenses could be built just like regular buildings.. maybe. Or the opposite. We'll have to play around with that idea...


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post Jul 12 2007, 09:38 PM
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So what your saying is:
MCV turns into a Warfactory and the warfactory produces units that deploy into Scrin structures

That would really hinder the Scrin production


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Lightstorm
post Jul 14 2007, 01:53 AM
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yeah i say we just use regular build tree and have the ships fly down and deploy as the construction animation.


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Lin Kuei Ominae
post Jul 14 2007, 09:13 AM
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sorry that i find everytime something against your ideas lightstorm, but this, even if it would be cool, isn't really possible in TS.
Because you have only a max of 25 frames for a buildup. And for a smooth looking landing animation there are much more needed.

But why we don't stick with the initial idea? All Scrin buildings are Flying Units that deploy.
Those Ships can all be build as units from the conyard using a dummy building.
To avoid using the deploy anim for the buildup, we use invisible dummy buildings that selfdestruct after buildup and give via Freeunit= the scrin ship. The Dummybuilding can then have the construction buildup anim for the ship.

Scrin Mothership (a smaller one than the main armada flagship) -> Conyard (with upgrades for energy, radar, silo (if possible) and other stuff)
Scrin Warship -> Warfactory
Scrin Troopship -> Barracks
Scrin Carrier -> Air Command (each Carrier deploys into a Scrin helipad)
Scrin Techship -> Tech Centre
Scrin Collector -> Refinery

Scrin Base defense via deployable other ground and air units.

This post has been edited by Lin Kuei Ominae: Jul 14 2007, 09:22 AM


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post Jul 14 2007, 02:20 PM
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i just couldn't see building ships that fly from the ground. we could teleport them in or now that i think about it we could have them appear invisible at first so you don't see the basic buildup animation, then after its built you set it to fire off a secondary animation that makes it visible and gives us the complete effect of it landing. i think ion cannon animation has enough screen time, clone it drop damage to 0 replace the animation with the landing and set it so when you build a building it automatically fires it off...unfortunately you'd need a different clone for each but it should work


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post Jul 14 2007, 10:53 PM
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I can see the Scrin player's having a really good 'uber-micro' with only using 1 column of the sidebar


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