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> Those awful mechs...
Mechs
keep em or leave em (read 1st post before voting)
remove them altogether [ 2 ] ** [16.67%]
give the mod 1 or 2 (kind of like CNC3) [ 7 ] ** [58.33%]
keep mechs anyways [ 3 ] ** [25.00%]
Total Votes: 12
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Carnotaurus
post Jul 12 2007, 03:52 AM
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I really cant stand the idea of this mod doing what 90% of TS/FS mods do...building in the Post-Firestorm world...but, I am not here to gripe about that. Thats not my job. I do have another gripe.

Mechs.

Will these lumbering, impractical monstrosities be meandering around in this sleek, post TS world. If we are going to follow Westwood's intentions with making a good, proper C&C3, why not follow Westwood and remove these vile, impractical monstrosities. Ishmael himself said that Continuum/Tiberium Incursion would be parting from them...

QUOTE
GDI was going away from mechs, yes. There were still a few, but Nod had gotten so good at taking out the leg joints on them with infantry that the repair and construction costs became prohibitive and the design was ruled "impractical".


-Ishmael.

So why dont we? Im sure that we can see some creative implimentations of Tankery Daggery Doo in this mod. Hover tanks, anybody? Why not a deploying Mammoth Tank, too?

This post has been edited by Master Blackster: Jul 12 2007, 08:57 PM


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Corsair
post Jul 12 2007, 03:56 AM
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Thank God, Ishmael gives the infantry a good word

Mechs are impractical, but as someone once said... they just look kickass, its a video game and its meant to be fun/kickass... so why not allow fun/kickass units - even if in the real world they'll always phayl

Not to mention, it looks like in their next installment CABAL was going to be heavily reliant on mechs/robotics, which could be why they were so willing to let GDI shift away from it (don't want too many mechs on the battlefield, then it could turn into CnC: Mechcommander wink1.gif)

This post has been edited by Corsair: Jul 12 2007, 04:11 AM


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Carnotaurus
post Jul 12 2007, 04:24 AM
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CABAL should be like Yuri, in my opinion. Not a mech-filled monstrosity. CABAL should use psychological warfare to win, showing the horrors of war to GDI and Nod. Imagine how scary it'd be to see human corpses, rotting, reanimated and augmented by cybernetics. Not lame like the TS cyborgs. Scary and graphic, limbs flopping off. CABAL should make GDI and Nod sh*t their drawers. but a FEW CABAL mechs would be fine.

None of that silly Core Drefender. It is SO cheesy looking.


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Corsair
post Jul 12 2007, 04:32 AM
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Well, I didn't necessarily mean mechs, just mechanical walkers - like the reaper

And I don't know about limbs flopping off, I would have thought CABAL would be a little bit more urgonomical with his dead bodies wink1.gif

I always wanted them to be more like this

This post has been edited by Corsair: Jul 12 2007, 04:34 AM
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Lin Kuei Ominae
post Jul 12 2007, 09:50 AM
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i agree, CABAL should be something like in the movie Virus with Jamie Lee Curtis. These Cyborgs were really Scary.
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But TS doesn't allows much detail, so it could become very hard to make the infantry scary ingame too. The only Cyborg that comes close to this is the commando.

But i don't agree that only because Nod found a way to simply destroy Mech-legs, they should not have been implemented anymore. I mean in WW2 they only need a grenade and blanket to destroy a tank. Throw the blanket so the driver can't see anything, and the grenade behind the fuel tanks.
There is nothing really invincible.
And since Mechs do their job better than Tanks (psychological warfare), i think they still should be in. And of course they look cooler than rolling cuboids.

This post has been edited by Lin Kuei Ominae: Jul 12 2007, 09:51 AM


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Corsair
post Jul 12 2007, 01:14 PM
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Oh dang, I forgot about that movie, and the memories!

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post Jul 12 2007, 01:33 PM
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if Nod figured out how to destroy Mech legs with Infantry then we should make it so Nod infantry can destroy mech legs by getting up to one and laying explosives. then we just have a few Mechs in, Jugger, Titan maybe an old model mammoth in addition to the new one.


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post Jul 12 2007, 04:18 PM
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i saw that movie its kinda like quake 4

scary cyborgs would be neat


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post Jul 12 2007, 05:37 PM
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QUOTE (Lin Kuei Ominae @ Jul 12 2007, 05:50 AM) *
But TS doesn't allows much detail, so it could become very hard to make the infantry scary ingame too.


I don't know, give them running animations and make them go about speed=6... they'd be running down infantry left and right... that'd be scary enough no? lol.gif


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Carnotaurus
post Jul 12 2007, 06:07 PM
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WWII tanks were rather pathetic, especially American tanks. Shermans were notorious for brewing up after taking a shell from a German panzer. After the war, really, its best to lay a mine down or some sort of IED for the vehicle to run over. Killing tanks is much different today then in 1942, though the best way is through a mobility kill. Sure that will stop a tank from moving, BUT, the turret can still move in some cases, the mounted minigun caqn still be used for defense. You blow up a tank with an IED, its possible for the crew to survive. M1 Abrams tanks can take RPGs and keep kicking. The best way to destroy a tank is with a tank, not implimented devices.

Now lets blast a RPG into that Titan Mk2's leg.

Boom. with one support, that Titan is going to fall down onto its side, kill the crew, and be useless. Whats the loss here? A high-technology, expensive weapons platform is lost, thats a 120mm gun down the sh*tter, as well. All those crewmen who put in time at "mech academy" to learn how to command this mobile death trap are also dead. What have we done? lost 4 (at the least) men,a highly expensive weapon platform, and that 120mm cannon could, perhaps be commandeered by mutants or others, for use against us!

And about the Psych-warfare, its not so scary if you know you can blow it's leg out with one hit from your trusty RPG. Hell, Im sure a Panzerschreck could make work of a Titan. Now imagine how...bad, these mechs would be in urban warfare. In Stalingrad, German tanks may have had the stronger guns, sure, but they had little space to work in. A road surrounded by buildings on either side is cramped as-is, now lets throw gigantic chunks of buildings, craters, and lots of dead bodies around. Panzers are screwed. There could be Soviets hiding in any of those apartment buildings with anti-tank weapons, or radios, to give out the co-ordinates of your tank, and send in a volley of Katyusha rockets. Nevermind the Red Airforce flying around.

Now lets replace that low-level tank with a 20+ foot high mech, and change the teams to beloved GDI and Nod. Not only do you have to still worry about those guys encamped in the buildings, you have to watch your footing moreso then the tank. One fateful slip and you're going to be plowing into one of those apartment buildings yourself! Nevermind if Ned the Noddie gets a C4 charge and slaps it on your leg. Oh, those spotters? now directing artillery units, and the Nod Airforce is much faster and accurate then the Soviet airforce of '44 Stalingrad. Your mech is pretty much screwed.


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Corsair
post Jul 12 2007, 06:32 PM
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Well, mechs do have a bit of a silver lining

Tanks don't have the height, any troopers in a building waiting to drop a bomb on top of a tank would receive a nice surprise to be staring down the barrels of a mech looking right through their window

However, the legs on a mech are dangerously unstable, they require precise movements and when an IED goes off that destroys that precise stability... in reality if it were a light mech running or even walking in the street, it would be pretty damn hard to hit the legs with a rocket... you could only really hope to just blast it with a roadside bomb, but those have the capability to take out a tank just as well

However, armored vehicles like tanks don't usually venture into populated cities as it is, those areas are for infantry and recon vehicles, so if you were to send armored vehicles (mechs or tanks) into a city during wartime with buildings that are forty plus stories tall then your only asking to be defeated

So what I'm saying, if you were really looking to make mechs in real life (or a realistic mod), it should only ever be a light mech

Heavier mechs could not hope to take on the trusty tanks, or the agility of the infantry

However, this is a game, as I've said... realism doesn't have to apply wink1.gif

(By the way, we had the tanks to rival Germany back in WWII, but our Generals were impatient SOBs and wanted to get into the fight, so they rushed production of the Sherman and so in turn our tank battalions almost always got stomped by their German counterparts - not to mention some of the "generals" didn't even know the differences between anti-tanks and regular tanks rolleyes.gif)

This post has been edited by Corsair: Jul 12 2007, 06:41 PM


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post Jul 12 2007, 06:40 PM
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i say we have a few mechs. for instance keep Juggernauts in. those guns wouldn't be too effective at ground level. they need the height provided by the tripod legs. also I'd keep a few old map specific units like MK2. and I would have a titan mech but seriously revamp it so its less unstable. i would also definitely give Cabal Mechs but give his mechs ubber flewible legs that could actually dodge the weapons. (like the legs on the new War of the Worlds tripod or on Doc Oc from Spiderman)


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Corsair
post Jul 12 2007, 06:49 PM
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Mechs really do make for good open area vehicles for their height, a good mech pilot would position himself in such a way so that he would have a superb vantage point over a hill while keeping his mech's legs hidden by that very hill, whereas a tank would have to actually venture over that same hill exposing its underbelly to enemy fire

So, just how you view it


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Carnotaurus
post Jul 12 2007, 07:18 PM
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I say that WWII took too long...I cant blame the generals. America was pissed over Pearl Harbour, the Russians were furious with Hitler, and Hitlerkins, btw, never put the state into a Total War mode. Factories werent producing at Soviet and American speeds. If Hitler did, WWII could've been much different...


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Corsair
post Jul 12 2007, 07:44 PM
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Well, I actually think thats amazing that if Hitler hadn't attacked Russia the war would have been his, especially considering the fact Nazi-Germany wasn't in Total War mode


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post Jul 12 2007, 09:11 PM
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Once I read, that without the Nazi Germany attacking Russia, Hitler would have had more than enough troops to stop/prevent D-day, making the reconquest of Europe by the allies impossible (Remember the Soviet Union would have been still neutral with Germany, and they did a lot of work in the liberation of Europe). Even more it was suggested the possibly of a cold war between the Soviet Union and the Nazi Germany. Well anyways too much off topic.

On topic mode (activated) lol.gif
For you to know, the tank concept, has been several times considered obsolete by modern armies, the most serious one, was with the appearance of the attack helicopter; helicopters eat tanks, they still do so today, they're the perfect tank predator. What I mean, if games were to follow reality, you'll only see helicopter rushes , and if you were going to make a mod based in TS "realistic", both mechs, and tanks would be obsolete against the firepower of Orcas, which are highly fast and maneuverable helicopters. So in short my point is, you can't have reality in a game, specially this game, if you don't want to severally cripple it's origin.
I agree that mechs are really an impractical design, we might never see a warmech (at least in planetary surface), but they're a part of the legacy of TS, even TD (if you have seen the concept art), also they're quite cool machines.

Finally, on a side note, I would support no new mechs in this mod, but not for the impractical design reason, but for the animation; voxel mechs are the ugliest thing ever made, specially that hideous mammoth mk. II


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Carnotaurus
post Jul 12 2007, 09:15 PM
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But eradicating "Jewish Bolshevism" was a key part of the Nazi ideology, therefore Hitlerkins couldn't go without destroying the Soviet Union.

tongue.gif


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post Jul 12 2007, 09:21 PM
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(added a poll)

I'm against mechs for this mod-

however, if LKO or someone puts together a totally awesome mech for this mod, I'm probably not going to refuse wink1.gif


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post Jul 12 2007, 09:45 PM
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You guys are all thinking of mechs being the primary vehicle, but we should jsut use mechs for just a support role.
We could have the mechs with only long range weaponry or mine layers or something.
And what about small mechs like the wolverine, I don't think you could place explosives on its legs...


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post Jul 12 2007, 10:18 PM
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hey, what about the juggernaut? why not keep it?


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post Jul 12 2007, 10:23 PM
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We have that truck thing that turns into artillery now, juggernauts gone. isn't it?


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post Jul 12 2007, 10:24 PM
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QUOTE (Carnotaurus @ Jul 12 2007, 05:15 PM) *
But eradicating "Jewish Bolshevism" was a key part of the Nazi ideology, therefore Hitlerkins couldn't go without destroying the Soviet Union.



He could have done it later when he wasn't fighting the U.S., Great Britain, and all the little resistances in the German occupied parts of Europe

QUOTE (jadems @ Jul 12 2007, 05:45 PM) *
You guys are all thinking of mechs being the primary vehicle, but we should jsut use mechs for just a support role.
We could have the mechs with only long range weaponry or mine layers or something.
And what about small mechs like the wolverine, I don't think you could place explosives on its legs...


I never said I was against mechs, I'm actually trying to defend them... if you haven't noticed wink1.gif

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post Jul 12 2007, 11:01 PM
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QUOTE (jadems @ Jul 12 2007, 05:23 PM) *
We have that truck thing that turns into artillery now, juggernauts gone. isn't it?

thats for nod dry.gif

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post Jul 12 2007, 11:20 PM
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Well it could really be for either wink1.gif - after all, it WAS intended to be for GDI. ..


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post Jul 12 2007, 11:27 PM
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I say we do the following in regards to Mechs:
1. Keep the Juggernaut. its just too cool to take out.
2. Keep titans but overhaul them to make them less destroyable (ie add more legs or lower the body frame or something)
3. Give Cabal Mechs but make them have Doc Oc style legs (or claws depending on how you look at it)
4. in the spirit of C&C keep some old Mechs around on certain maps


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post Jul 13 2007, 02:58 AM
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QUOTE (Lightstorm @ Jul 12 2007, 07:27 PM) *
2. Keep titans but overhaul them to make them less destroyable (ie add more legs or lower the body frame or something)


Really all you have to do is armor plate the rivets and sockets and they'd be fine from rocket attacks, C4 explosives will utterly destroy mech and tank alike so I see no reason why mechs can't be implemented like normal in the mod (if you were planning to originally)

Infantry are never obsolete! Everyone seems to be picturing a mech all alone in a city getting blown apart by road side bombs or RPGs... infantry can be a mech's best friend in this mod. Infantry platoons move forward to clear out buildings, the mech watches their backs and observes the buildings floors for enemy movement (if you want to think realistically).

Tanks and mechs aren't such a great mix, however infantry mix well with both. So make good infantry, or I'll kick your ass! innocent.gif


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post Jul 13 2007, 09:03 PM
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Going back to CABAL, if you watch Dr Who, there is a race called the Cybermen. They are basicly cyborgs, but more than that. They are human beings, forced into factories to be turned into one.

Now, this is an idea of how it would work.

If CABAL uprieses again, some missions would consist of destroying the factories, make a London map, a sydney map, ect.

EDIT:
Yes, i like the idea of CABAL using fear as a tactic, perhaps an ability would be to call in some sort of plane, that drops live prisoners onto the battlefield. It would act as an EMP.

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post Jul 13 2007, 09:17 PM
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i say we make cabals cyborgs able to make infantry go crazy, so you move a cyborg into an area the infantry start running around stupidly, shooting random things, bursting into flame ect.

and i would give Cabal walkers but make them have legs like this:

or this:



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post Jul 13 2007, 09:31 PM
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yeah I'm for Doc Oc legs, especially for the scrin stuff- but traditional GDI TS mechs should be canned (Except maybe the Juggernaut)


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