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> Aircraft beakthrough!
Team Black
post Jun 30 2007, 04:40 AM
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(Yea, I posted it on PPM as well)
Well if you didn't know already, there's a technique where you can make aircraft out of vehicles by giving them a flying locomotor** and MovementZone=fly.
When a vehicle is made into an aircraft, it allows the aircraft to follow pretty much every logic that a vehicle supports -
HVA animation, troop transport, deploying, shp, harvesting (well, sort of...), and turrets, to name a few.

This method has 2 major problems:
1 - the unit can't reveal shroud - this can be more or less overcome by making the unit MoveToShroud=no, as most aircraft are anyways...

2 - the unit is invincible during flight - due to this characteristic, this method has been mostly disregarded, as it can easily cause gameplay & balance issues.

Up to this point, I've said pretty much everything we have already found out. So what's the breakthrough? get a load of this:



I told you in Jah's heli research thread I couldn't take "no" for an answer, and after doing some research of my own, I found that the flying vehicles WERE in fact vulnerable to two things:
>Firestorm defense, but more importantly:
>Railguns!

By making the railgun projectile AA=yes, they can successfully target, damage, and destroy flying vehicles!
Granted, it's not an ultimate flawless solution, as you'll need to make all your AA guns into railguns - but the important thing is that it's that it's possible, and that there IS a way to make hva anims, air transports, shp vehicles, and all that other cool stuff, without sending gameplay and balance to heck.

Dogfights? sort of.
I made these planes play a game of chicken - only one of them fired though, one time, then after that they just sat there floating. I had to order it to attack before it would fire again.


It should be also noted that they can shoot at stuff while landed (though the airplanes themselves don't need to be armed with railguns, of course tongue.gif )


**I've found that the jumpjet locomotor is best - the actual aircraft loco makes the unit get stuck on the war factory bib, unable to move, and disabling further warfactory production.

Selling/undeploying the warfactory frees the aircraft, but I would deem it too unpractical to do that for each new aircraft that you make -

it should be noted, also, that units with the the jumpjet locomotor take a decent amount of time to "get out" of the warfactory, meaning, that no other units can be produced while it's exiting the War Factory. I'd advise giving your aircraft some good speed and/or editing the [jumpjet controls] section, to achieve the most desirable result . This means, that this method would be best for things like helicopters and hot air balloons, but probably not for actual planes.

>If you found any of this useful, please be sure to let me know, it did take some testing till I achieved this info, thanks smile.gif


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ChielScape
post Jun 30 2007, 07:13 AM
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make sure which railgun specific tag causes this phenomenon.


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jadems
post Jun 30 2007, 10:57 AM
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That's wicked! Can we use it for TCM? We can finally have flying Scrin buildings..


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Creagor
post Jun 30 2007, 11:04 AM
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As posted on PPM:

You know,it may not be because its a railgun that it does damage, it may just be affected by particle systems and/or AmbientDamage=

I suggest the follow up research to this should be into that - finding aout what actually does the damage, the particles or the ambient damage. Particlesdo damage through tags in the actual particle code (MaxDC= and Damage=), and ambient damage works through the weapon.

Once we know what causes the damage, it's a case of using it on the AA weapons, either by adding ambient damage to it or by using a particle system to it.


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Lin Kuei Ominae
post Jun 30 2007, 12:55 PM
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just adding the AmbientDamage tag doesn't work (tested)
I've added to [RedEye2] AmbientDamage=15; my jumpjet wolverine was still invincible.

P.S. awesome find TB thumbup.gif

\EDIT
it's the railgun that does the damage.
AmbientDamage=15
IsRailgun=true
AttachedParticleSystem=SmallRailgunSys
are responsible for the damage
Hovermissile+RailgunAttached Image

the problem is that railguns always fire with speed=100. attached on a missile, this means you have a slow flying missile and a fast railgun fired at the same time.
Target on Ground: First hits the railgun with ambientdamage= and then the missile (that takes a little longer) with damage=.
Target in Air: Only the AmbientDamage hits the target. The damage= tag does nothing. (railgun damages, missile doesn't damages)
I don't know how to slow down railguns so that their impact time is the same as the actual weapon. (here missile)

Also worth mentioning: this way a unit can have 2 weapons fired at the same time. Missile+Railgun or Cannon+Railgun etc.

for TCM: lets make an High-Tech anti Scrin Air Defense like a Railgun flak. (flak=ger FlugAbwehrKanone engl AirDefenseCannon)

This post has been edited by Lin Kuei Ominae: Jun 30 2007, 02:24 PM


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post Jun 30 2007, 02:27 PM
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Does it have to be a railgun, or do other particle systems also work? One could attach an explosion-like particle system to the warhead which would deal out the actual damage.


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Lin Kuei Ominae
post Jun 30 2007, 02:31 PM
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i don't know how an explosion particle has to be done. I've tested also the FireStreamSys (from FireBallLauncher) particle, but that doesn't work.
or do you mean an art.ini custom animation with damage?
just adding damage= to an explosion anim in art.ini doesn't work. only ground units get damaged with the extra damage. (tested)

This post has been edited by Lin Kuei Ominae: Jun 30 2007, 02:42 PM


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post Jun 30 2007, 02:42 PM
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Would it be possible to make another animation for the railgun that is invisible?

That way you could have a weakened railgun that's invisible in every unit, so they can attack the scrin aircraft?


Pardon my ignorance if i am wrong. I've never modded, voxeled, SHPed or mappen before confused.gif


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Lin Kuei Ominae
post Jun 30 2007, 02:53 PM
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i think you can make it quite invisible. Set number of Particles to zero (the small pixels around the laser) and the Laser color to 0,0,0. But there's still the problem that now the weapon has ambientdamage. And AmbientDamage has to be set to actually damage the flying vehicle.
But weapons like missiles or Cannons shouldn't have ambientdamage if they fire on something different than scrin ships (flying vehicles). So this hack should only be done on special anti Scrin air defenses and not on every AA-Missile that can shoot ground too.

This post has been edited by Lin Kuei Ominae: Jun 30 2007, 02:58 PM


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Team Black
post Jun 30 2007, 04:39 PM
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So you can make the railgun itself invisible, and make the weapon look like flak or a machine gun or something (something that would look good with speed=100). Maybe this might reduce railgun lag as well. . .

For sure though, this puts flying buildings back into the TCM as a full possibility - that, and air transports, and moving rotors, and all that other jazz B0


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Lin Kuei Ominae
post Jun 30 2007, 08:30 PM
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QUOTE (Team Black rocks @ Jun 30 2007, 04:39 PM) *
For sure though, this puts flying buildings back into the TCM as a full possibility - that, and air transports, and moving rotors, and all that other jazz B0

correct dance.gif
a Railgun with
ParticlesPerCoord=0.0001
Laser=no
is complete invisible and the railgun doesn't lags the game anymore. (tested)

\EDIT
i've tested now quite a lot of different strategies with the particle system to get it work only on impact.
The poor result, i didn't got it. sad.gif

first: Weapon Particle
i tried to get rid of the IsRailgun=true tag and added UseFireParticles/UseSparkParticles instead. Both doesn't work. If they made damage, they only did this on ground. In air the Jumpjet Wolverine was still invincible.
I also tried to use some different ParticleSystems but they all only worked on ground units too.

now that this doesn't work...
second: Warhead Particle
i tried to move the damage towards the Warhead. removed the ParticleSystem from the Weapon and added Particle=SmallRailgunSys tag to my [FRAGHE] Warhead that is used from my Hover MLRS.
The result was, it doesn't works too. Damage tags on the Particle (not the ParticleSystem) only affected ground units.
But the quite funny side-effect was, that after the missile has hit the target, a laserline came down from the middle of the northern border of the map, because the Laser had no point of origin (because the weaponprojectile is gone).
Maybe useful as some kind of Orbitallaser if the projectile is invisible. But be sure you have a very low number of Particles. A railgun drawn over the entire map uses a lot of particles.

then i went back to the IsRailgun= tag and it seems to me that exact this one, in combination with the AmbientDamage= tag, makes it possible to hit the flying vehicle.
Extra damage tags on the RailgunParticle only worked on ground units too.
So AmbientDamage= seems to be the only one that can damage flying vehicles.

I've failed finding an alternative for the Railgun, but that doesn't mean that nobody else finds a solution.
I just want to mention the Disruptor system, that i haven't tested. \EDIT (tested and does not work)
I also don't have a clue what makes the Firestorm hit the target, where it has its damage tags and how its Particles work.

This post has been edited by Lin Kuei Ominae: Jul 1 2007, 10:30 AM


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post Jul 1 2007, 01:58 PM
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cool thx team black


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post Jul 2 2007, 02:51 PM
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QUOTE (Lin Kuei Ominae @ Jun 30 2007, 04:31 PM) *
i don't know how an explosion particle has to be done. I've tested also the FireStreamSys (from FireBallLauncher) particle, but that doesn't work.
or do you mean an art.ini custom animation with damage?
just adding damage= to an explosion anim in art.ini doesn't work. only ground units get damaged with the extra damage. (tested)


Add Particle= to the warhead? rolleyes.gif (Or something like that, it has been a while. Look at TSTW Ion Cannon logic)


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CommanderSpartan
post Nov 17 2007, 07:01 AM
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Huh, why not make a firestorm weapon, I saw one in a mod once.


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jadems
post Nov 17 2007, 11:37 AM
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Did the firestorm weapon fire from the Civilian array that was buildable? I remember a mdo like that - I think they jsut used the graphic and put it on an uber-leet weapon


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Team Black
post Nov 17 2007, 04:12 PM
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Even if you could, the firestorm is a one-hit kill.. You'd be better off using the railguns, so that it'll deal a controlled amount of damage.


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Roadwarrior
post Dec 21 2007, 03:39 AM
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(sorry if this isn't new blushing.gif )


dance.gif Here is something i found by accident dance.gif



it only removes shroud when it touches down (seen in middle pic).

It has the jj loco and spinning rotors for your information.

im using Anderwins clean ini's and here is my code Attached File  huey_code.doc ( 9.5K ) Number of downloads: 318


and make sure to put guardrange=1 or 2 so it wont fly off in to the darkness when their is an enemy nearby
dance.gif dance.gif

This post has been edited by Roadwarrior: Dec 21 2007, 03:40 AM


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Team Black
post Dec 21 2007, 03:51 AM
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well I kinda knew that already, but thanks for sharing that anyways smile.gif

I'm gonna try something else soon that'll hopefully make the rotor effect even better


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post Dec 21 2007, 04:00 AM
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oh, ok smile.gif
when i saw that i was like omg wow O _ O


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post Dec 21 2007, 05:20 AM
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TB, Rotor Effect? how so?


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Aro
post Dec 21 2007, 05:58 AM
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought rotors didn't work in, TS. huh.gif


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Lin Kuei Ominae
post Dec 21 2007, 10:29 AM
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they work, but only as an animated voxel section on a vehicletype. And if i'm right, that is what Roadwarrior did by giving a vehicle the jumpjet loco.
Only aircrafttypes can't have voxel section anims.

you can test this very easy by giving the hmec a jj loco and see how he walks in air.

This post has been edited by Lin Kuei Ominae: Dec 21 2007, 10:33 AM


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post Dec 21 2007, 04:49 PM
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Rotors work fine, and air transports. Watch this vid

Here's the files I used:
Attached File(s)
Attached File  spinning_rotor_harpy.zip ( 16.79K ) Number of downloads: 266
 


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Aro
post Dec 21 2007, 05:04 PM
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It's ashame the shadow's don't work correctly. roll.gif


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Team Black
post Dec 21 2007, 05:11 PM
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You can use ShadowIndex= in art.ini to maxe the main body cast a shadow instead, for the hva anim

UseTurretShadow= for the spinning turret anim


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post Dec 21 2007, 05:51 PM
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Hmm, Interesting stuff there mate.

So you got it to work almost perfect, only downside is the turret shadow, rail gun damage only and its a vehicle.


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Team Black
post Dec 21 2007, 05:55 PM
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I'm thinking these will work best as FreeUnits with airpads or something, using the TS "Naval Yard" logic so that they only build helis


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post Dec 22 2007, 04:23 AM
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From: ɐɯoɥɐlʞo
Member No.: 93
Alliance: GDI
Favorite game: Tiberian Sun



more off-topicness

QUOTE (BlackieChan @ Dec 21 2007, 02:37 PM) *
Roadwarrior, where'd you get the UH-1 Iroquois?
UH-1 Iroquois? "google's..."oh, ok you mean the huey".i made it cool.gif it will be in my mod(click sig for link)

On topic

@TB:i didn't think to make the rotors a turret.And BTW MoveToShroud=no only makes it so you cant click on shroud GuardRange= should be at 1 so it wont fly off.

This post has been edited by Roadwarrior: Dec 22 2007, 04:32 AM


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Wiggles
post Dec 23 2007, 04:35 PM
Post #29

Technician
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From: England
Member No.: 1,081
Favorite game: Tiberian Sun



Sorry if i'm repeating what might have been said already but... About the warfactory bit, couldn't you just set it so that the flying vehicle appears on a helipad instead of out of the war factory? And it is possible to have flying transports in Tiberian Sun... I've got 3. Just use this code... It works to a certain extent. (dropship as example)

[DSHP]
Name=Dropship
Primary=Bomb2 (i made it's projectile invisible, and does 0 damage, effectively unarmed)
Prerequisite=GAHPAD,GATECH
Strength=500
Category=Transport
Armor=heavy
TechLevel=9
Sight=8
RadarInvisible=no
carryall=no
Landable=yes
MoveToShroud=no
Dock=GAHPAD
PipScale=Passengers
Passengers=5
Speed=15
PitchSpeed=1.1
Owner=GDI
Cost=2000
Points=20
ROT=5
Crewed=yes
Explosion=TWLT070,S_BANG48,S_BRNL58,S_CLSN58,S_TUMU60
VoiceSelect=30-I000,30-I002,30-I004,30-I006
VoiceMove=30-I014,30-I016,30-I018,30-I022
VoiceAttack=30-I022,30-I034,30-I036
FlightLevel=1500
MaxDebris=9
Locomotor={4A582746-9839-11d1-B709-00A024DDAFD1}
MovementZone=Fly
ThreatPosed=10
SlowdownDistance=1250
DamageParticleSystems=SparkSys,SmallGreySSys
AuxSound1=DROPUP1 ;Taking off
AuxSound2=DROPDWN1 ;Landing

It can fly about and land like a normal fighter, and can carry infantry about, but with infantry inside it, it will go back to one of your units and fly around like a retard. You can use paratroopers like this, and it can only deploy by actually clicking it, then clicking it again, the deploy shortcut doesn't work...
I also noticed that if you do this to the orca transport, in some of the missions where you have to evac civilians, the orca transport will start attacking your people. This is probably because of the houses aren't allied, but it's pretty funny to watch.
But yeah, awesome break-through, maybe that could be used to get rid of the stupidness of what I did.
Oh, and can you make say a flying Amphibious APC using the movementZone=Fly and the aircraft locomotor?
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Team Black
post Dec 23 2007, 08:54 PM
Post #30


Core Defender
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From: New York, U S of A
Member No.: 123
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Favorite game: Tiberian Sun



Thanks for sharing your info, though making it an "AircraftType" (that is, buildable on a helipad) has some glitchiness when it's given the ability to transport infantry - it dances around in the air, unable to land..

QUOTE
Oh, and can you make say a flying Amphibious APC using the movementZone=Fly and the aircraft locomotor?

Well that's sort of what I did for test #3 in the youtube vid..
Making a "VehicleType" (built from the War Factory) PipScale=Pasengers and Passengers=5, and it can transport infantry with no problems at all smile.gif


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