Scrin vs. Rebels (part 1) -, What to do about the rebels Options

[Team Black]

One issue with the two part release of Scrin vs. Rebels, is that the Rebels will have to be ditched for the second release.
What should we do about this?

Plan A: Scrin and Rebels will be incomplete/small factions have different tech, but IN PART 2, both side's technology will be COMBINED to form a complete Scrin side, which will be balanced to fight fairly against GDI and Nod
We might have to skip multiplayer in Part 1

Plan B: Scrin and rebels will be complete & balanced sides, available in single and multiplayer.
This will be a pain and a lot of time to do, and we'll have to ditch the Rebels for the second part anyways..

Plan C: Both Scrin and Rebels will have the same technology. This would enable a decent multiplayer, but it should be good enough to make a campaign out of.
and we wouldn't have the problem of creating a whole side just to ditch it in Part 2

Or something else. What should we do with the rebels?

be sure to stay on topic ;D

This post has been edited by Team Black: May 26 2007, 05:10 AM

[Lightstorm]

plan C has the potential to be another Hasan deal with was rather boring in my opinion, but if we do A then we need to know how we'd divide up the tech.

[Bittah Commander]

I'm going with A.

Now, aside from the Scrin and the rebels... I'm sure you've read Ishmael's post about the options they had for the origin of the Tacitus. One of them was that he Tacitus was the sole prison for the martian leader that figured out how to defeat the Scrin, but was too Late. The other was that the Tacitus was simply the Scrin's bible, which I take as some kind of database which contains all information and technology they have (which if you think about it, doesn't sound thát far fetched).

Now we're going to have the same choice for the origin of the tacitus. In the case that we'd go with the tacitus being really a prison for that martian leader, we'd also need a martian side (which in my opinion could make the first part of this mod a lot more interesting). However, just like I stated over at Petroglyph, I don't really understand that if the Tacitus would really be a prison, how Nod could've been able to extract technology from it. So if we go with this option, I think that would need to be figured out.

So to keep it simple, if we go with the "Tacitus = sole prison for martian leader" option, we'll have 3 factions for the first part of the mod (The Scrin, the Scrin rebels and the Martians) and if we go with the "Tactus = Scrin bible" option, there will only be the 2 you just mentioned.

[Team Black]

I'll post it here, for easier reference:

We had also developed two completely different origins for the Tacitus, and since both stories leveraged that origin, I'm trying to remember what each included.
One was centered around the Tacitus being a soul-prison for the leader of the martian force that fought against the Scrin (they knew how to beat the Scrin, but discovered it too late) while the Earth was still primordial,
and the other was centered around the Scrin rebels stealing the "bible" of the Scrin -- which may or may not have been written by them in the first place -- and the Scrin Primal's crusade to recover it.

We went back and forth on just where the Tacitus came from, but the translation of it is really the key -- what some may interpret as a warning from it could really be written prophecy or even an instruction manual to other eyes, depending on who is reading it and what they want to get from it.

I think involving the martians as a faction might complicate it a bit too much. Yeah the Bible thing sounds like a better idea-

[Lightstorm]

yeah and martians sound kinda corny anyway.

[ChielScape]

wouldnt a second alien race be interesting? if we do that, we'll have complete freedom as to what they are. they could also come back in part 2, so they wont have to be ditched.

Scrinvasion (fend them off in mission 1) -> GDI+Nod alliance (like FS) (missions 2-5/6) -> kane reappears with CABAL -> Nod tries to reunite with them, breaking the alliance with GDI (6/7-10/11) -> GDI wants CABALs tech for itself. (6/7-10/11) -> the faction played succeeds in securing CABALs tech and beats scrin. (11/12-14/15)
thats my 2 ct.

that would transform this into (alien race 2 will now be referred to as AR2):
PART 1: AR2 found out that the scrin got tiberium to earth and invade their planets. -> scrin are stronger and fend them off -> AR2 sends a colony ship to earth to help the earthlings ficht the scrin.(they already tried to do that with the tacitus, which got picked up by the scrin in the ship that got shot down/crashed in TS TD, according to Bittah) -> the rest of AR2 tries to hold off the scrin to let the ship reach earth, they succeed, but the get wiped out. (end of part 1)

PART 2: AR2 reaches earth, with the humans thinking they are the scrin, since they are also connected to tiberium. -> the first mission consists of fighting them (both GDI and Nod) -> however, kane returns and trough what he knows from the tacitus, (not everything, since only CABAL knows that), he contacts AR2. -> since he needs the scrin, and not the AR2, he decides to kill them. -> GDI thinks this is suspicious. and when they notice the AR2 doesnt retaliate against Nod, but only defends, GDI decides to contact them as well. (they also have some tacitus info, remember) -> they decide to help these aliens right at the moment the scrin invade earth, diverting nods atention from AR2. -> GDI allies with AR2, and Nod tries to help the scrin (similar reasons as in C&C3). -> the scrin notice that Nod helps them and decides to use nod. -> both sides now have equal power again, so the one who first reaches CABAL wins.
-> Kane reaches CABAL: he fuses, and gaining all the information from the tacitus he wipes out GDI, the AR2, and partly also the scrin.
-> GDI reaches CABAL: they forcefully capture CABAL and with the information from the tacitus find a way to kill Kane once and for all (infolving tiberium of course), and wipe out the alien invaders and everything they brought with them.

Possible part 3:
-> Kane reaches CABAL first: after hijacking the scrin towers (i personally like this idea from C&C3, though the gates dont necessarily have to be towers) kane invades the Scrin home planets, creating new worlds for humans to live on, that

This post has been edited by ChielScape: May 26 2007, 06:12 AM

[Lin Kuei Ominae]

So to keep it simple, if we go with the "Tacitus = sole prison for martian leader" option, we'll have 3 factions for the first part of the mod (The Scrin, the Scrin rebels and the Martians) and if we go with the "Tactus = Scrin bible" option, there will only be the 2 you just mentioned.

There is room for interpretation right?
So why isn't the Tacitus both. A sole Prison and a database. A Martian Leader, who studied the Scrin, finally decided to conserve his knowledge and transfered his soul/knowledge into the Tacitus. But after a long time, it seems for everyone to be only a prison, because the Scrin abused the Tacitus, while it was planned as being the last chance for the martians.

So the 2 factions can be, Scrin and Rebels and the Rebels are far descendants from the martians.
So Chielscapes idea, that is imo really good, works too.
First GDI/Nod think the Rebels are the Scrin, until the true Scrin finally invade.

Campaign
Scrin vs Rebels (the first mod part)
In both stories the Rebels loose, and flee to earth in the hope to find the Tacitus.
Short time after the Rebels the Scrin invade earth. (They need more time, because they had to prepare the Invasion fleet)

Something that we can put in the story too.
After recognizing that they will be defeated, the Martians send a probe with genetic material to earth. This genetic material, involved in earth evolution, finally allows earth lifeforms to mutate after Tiberium contact, instead of being eliminated.
So humans are far related to martians, making them able to be a thread for the Scrin.

This way we can also explain Kane, why he lived for so long. He could be a human with a much higher percentage of martian DNA. And the martians natural lifespan was hundred of years. Or he even is one of the last martians, becoming crazy over the hundred of years.

This post has been edited by Lin Kuei Ominae: May 25 2007, 10:38 AM

[Bittah Commander]

It being both does sound good, but it would seem unlikely to me that it would be referred to as a bible in that case.

Also, chielscape appears to be forgetting (or just doesn't know) that the Scrinship you see in TS was built by Kane somewhere at the end of TD (and he obviously must have used the Tacitus to build it). Vega took the ship with the intention to wipe out some GDI forces, but he couldn't control it and crashed the ship. Vega survived the crash, but after getting interrogated by McNeil, he died in the destruction of his pyramid (which was Kane's punishment for what he did).

I don't understand why the tacitus was on board of the Scrinship Kane built however...

Anyway, in the final FS Nod FMV you see CABAL in a lab and bodies in tubes (which I assume are used by CABAL as if they're his processor and/or hard drives). Now what if those bodies in the tubes really belonged to the Scrin rebels? It would be a possible explanation why CABAL would be able to translate the Tacitus...

[ChielScape]

wasnt it shot down by kane? if it was built by kane, he wouldve made the tacitus, which isnt the case.
though ive never finished Nod in TD. (its brutal)
and thanks, LKO for liking my idea.

[Bittah Commander]

No, it was not shot down by Kane... Vega Crashed the Scrinship himself. I also don't see any logic in your claim; "if it was built by Kane, he would've made the Tacitus".
Kane built the Scrinship you see in TS; this was both confirmed in both a GDI and Nod FMV in TS and aside from that also by Ishmael over at the Petroglyph forums. Kane either built or rebuilt the Scrinship you see in TS, using information he extracted from the Tacitus. I actually think it's most likely Kane really rebuilt the Scrinship you see in TS (the original must have Crashed somewhere during TD, which Kane took the Tacitus from), since he wouldn't have been able to get the alien materials the Scrinship is constructed from otherwise.

[Lightstorm]

OKAY WE NEED TO DECIDE WHO YOU WILL PLAY AS IN THIS PART!! SCRIN OR REBELS???
once we do this i will work up a baseline story for you guys to play with. me I'd say rebels, they just seem the "good guys" but i suppose that would be difficult for continuity since they lose in the end and generally campaigns end with the player winning.

[Lin Kuei Ominae]

especially that the rebels lose, gives this mod something special. It is boring as a player to win always. And due to the fact that this is only Part 1 of the whole story, the player would get impatiently and really wants to see the second Part (the landing on earth).

We should also think, if we introduce a special leader and other persons for each side. Characters that bring the game closer to the player and add some good atmosphere to the story. Some background infos for these characters would be fine too.
e.g.
Scrin supreme commander "add name here"
-known for his brutal tactics
-survived more than one assassination attempt from the rebels
-known for being the one who destroyed a whole planet, for only a single base of the rebels, that was more a civil outpost.

Rebel leader "add name here"
-wise and strong leader
-one of the last martians (do we use martians?)
-the oldest member of the rebels
-lost his family by a scrin attack
Rebel scientist "add name here"
-young naive female scientist from a planet with the most intelligent species
-the only hope for finding ways to counter the superior scrin technology
-is a member of a squid shaped species (they dont have to be human like) (maybe looks like an infantry version of the tiberium jellyfish)

Those should appear in some missions too.

This post has been edited by Lin Kuei Ominae: May 26 2007, 12:18 AM

[Lightstorm]

once again Martians are a bad idea. why? the whole premise is that the scrin killed them before humans even evolved. but if they destroyed Mars then why'd they wait to go after the Earth? i say make all the aliens extrasolar. its just simpler that way. also how do you have the 'successful' ending of the campaign if it ends with the player losing? if we had cutscenes we could make the scrin beat them afterwords but thats pretty involved.

EDIT: how many races are we gonna involve? I'd say one, two at most,

This post has been edited by Lightstorm: May 26 2007, 01:46 AM

[Team Black]

Yeah I think in CNC3 there's a scrin leader, "Overlord" or something (right, Lightstorm, Bittah? )
The leader of the rebels could be the one who ends up putting his soul in the tacitus.

It would be really cool if we could pull off the Scrin vs. Rebels from the Rebel's point of view.
It could be like a Star Wars Episode III - esque feeling, where their doom is inevitable, and their last hope is to complete the tacitus, and send it to Earth, to give the humans a chance to beat the Scrin.

There would be a problem though basing a mission-accomplishing-type game on a story of Rebels, that will all be defeated anyways. But what if...
All of the missions were somehow based on gathering information, to put into the tacitus. (like, capturing Scrin tech centers and stuff, and keeping the tacitus away from the Scrin..)

See, the rebellion could start when a group of rebels decides to disagree with the [scrin leadership] (the ones deciding to use tiberium to destroy other planets, for their own benefit). They formed a committee and respectfully requested that planet Earth be left alone.
The [scrin leaders] are blinded by the power & wealth that they can get from the tiberium, and so they command silence to the rebel's concerns, under the pain of death. It's at this point that the rebels begin the tacitus project, an underground project to go around gathering all the information on the scrin leaders, their military, their the science of tiberium, to give to the people of earth.
The leaders find out about the underground, and the tacitus project, which leads to all-out war Scrin Leaders vs. Rebels. The Rebels know they can't defeat the massive power of the Scrin [leader-guys], and fight hard, but lose their teritory, and during their last stand they complete the tacitus. [Rebel-boss-dude] puts his soul into the tacitus, (maybe he gets mortally wounded, and it's the only way he can carry on?)
A crew of rebels then takes off from the scrin planet towards earth.
The ship crash-lands on Earth, and all of the passengers die. During TD Kane finds the ship, takes the tacitus, and builds the TS "Scrin ship" with it, in secret.
END PART 1

We can make a campaign around that, what say you?

(The tacitus was put in the temple during TD, and was fractured when GDI hit the temple with its ion cannon (which accounts for the missing piece in TS:Firestorm) - Someone found the piece or something, and brought it to the temple-place in that one firestorm mission)
This made the tacitus's information incomplete, although perhaps Kane backed it up in the beginning stages of forming CABAL, which could explain how he was able to translate the tacitus, even with that portion gone although that wouldn't explain why CABAL would need it in Firestorm )

[Lightstorm]

that sounds good and yes in TW there is an Overlord. you don't see him, you talk to the "Supervisor"

[Bittah Commander]

Indeed.

Anyway, about the story you just made up... If you want to follow Westwood's original intentions as much as possible it's not gonna work. Ishmael stated that origin of the tacitus would be either that it's really the scrin bible or the sole prison for the Martian leader. The Scrin rebel leader isn't Martian, so that's not really going to work...

@Lightstorm: You do have good arguments about the Scrin fighting the Martians, but maybe it can be explained why the Scrin did not attack Earth right away. For instance, maybe when the Martians were fighting the Scrin, the sources on the Scrin's planet weren't depleted yet and thus the Scrin harvest the resources from other planets yet.
Also, at the time the Scrin were at war with the Martians, there might not have been (intelligent) life on our planet yet.

[Lightstorm]

Also, at the time the Scrin were at war with the Martians, there might not have been (intelligent) life on our planet yet.

all the more reason to exploit it then before intelligent life shows up. i still favor the scrin bible approach, it just makes more sense.

[Team Black]

Poll added. XD

[Lightstorm]

it says i already voted. but if i could I'd say scrin bible.

[Team Black]

I'll just reset the poll I guess (if I can even do that )

EDIT: Couldn't reset it, but I added 2 votes there for you and me,

This post has been edited by Team Black: May 26 2007, 05:15 AM

Reason for edit: he is too young to be trained as a Jedi

[ChielScape]

If you want to follow Westwood's original intentions as much as possible it's not gonna work.

to me, you seem the only one who wants that.
we arent westwood. its good to base the mod on westwoods intentions, but not to "follow Westwood's original intentions as much as possible". Westwood ain't no God.

[Lin Kuei Ominae]

and what i don't like is, why should the Tacitus-bible have information about technology. There would stand something about boring history things and persons. So how would you explain the existance of described technology in the Tacitus, while it's only full of Scrin culture and religion stuff.
Also a bible is in my eyes something old, out of date and useless for technology research.

This post has been edited by Lin Kuei Ominae: May 26 2007, 09:35 AM

[ChielScape]

not that kinf of bible, LKO.
bible in this context is meant as a "book" or in this case "wierd alien device", containing all information about something.
e.g. there is a "Doom-bible", which describes all small details of the game, and how it was designed.

[Lin Kuei Ominae]

oh, ok. thanks.
In this case bible would be ok. But i think it still miss an explanation why it was build. And from whom. The Scrin shouldn't be interested in creating such a dangerous device. And the Rebels afaik only use this, and don't had the technology to create it.

[Bittah Commander]

Well, the Scrin could've made it so that all information and technology would be accessable from one place and only certain people were allowed to get near the Tacitus.

@Chilscape:
It was agreed on to follow Westwood's original intentions as much as possible in another topic. So far you've been the only one I've seen that not agrees with this.

[ChielScape]

even if thats the case, most is still only speculation. like i said, is good to base it off of westwoods plans, but it'll never turn out the way they meant it, simpy because only EA knows, and wont tell. giving yourself a little freedom in creating the mod will allow us to focus on more important things.
besides, who says we cant do better than westwood? i said before, westwood isnt perfect. (though neither are we.)
so what im trying to say is, dont count TB's or anyone else's storylines out simply because "they arent exactly what westwood planned".
you've got me wrong thinking i dont want westwoods story. i want the best one, and if it happens to be westwood's, then naturally there's no problem. everyone, and that includes you too, bittah, need to be open to other suggestions. even if they might be different from westwood's orignal intentions. (no offence)
if i'm wrong, and you are open to suggestions, forgive my spamming. ;P

This post has been edited by ChielScape: May 26 2007, 01:42 PM

[Lightstorm]

maybe bible is a bad way to describe it. i'd say its closer to an encyclopedia.

[ChielScape]

maybe. but bible wouldnt be incorrect.

[Bittah Commander]

In the past I've often tried to make up the part of the C&C story that wasn't known, but in the end, with every single part of it, what Ishmael revealed about the story was much deeper than what I thought of.
I am indeed open for suggestions, but I just feel it'd be best if we only fill up the part of the story that isn't known yet. The parts of the story that Ishmael released aren't speculation by the way.